Posted By Sally My problem is one I can't find discussed anywhere on the forum or anywhere else. I work in schools and we have systems in place to evacuate all our physically disabled young people. However we have a number of young people who, due to various conditions, are likely to lie down on the floor and refuse to co-operate with an evacuation. These young people have limited communication skills and don't really understand the concept of fire or danger. Anyone got any suggestions? Often they are too old to physically lift and will kick and bite if someone attempts to anyway.

Posted By shaun mckeever Sally Although expensive I would consider installing a sprinkler system. Other factors to consider are progressive horizontal evacuation beyond fire resisting walls and also an L2 or possible L1 automatic fire detection and alarm system. Each of these I would consider to be reasonable in the circumstances you describe. They may take a bit longer because of the financial implications and budgetary controls but when you consider that you are planning for life safety, if it all goes pear shaped you will have to explain why you did or did not do something.

Posted By Ashley Wood Hi, I agree with what Shaun has said. 'defend in place' or similar is a term used by the fire service. Look at a complete fire strategy to include passive (structural) and active (sprinklers, detection)solutions. Then you have to prepare a fire action plan that reflects the protection measures you have in place. Look at the building as it stands now, are there any areas where you can move the children to that have existing passive protection i.e concrete stairways etc. with regards to putting sprinklers into the area where the children will be, this is not the way to do it. You want the sprinklers to activate outside the area where the children are to suppress the fire and prevent its growth. If the sprinklers go off in the room the children are in then you have a fire in that room and should not be in it! this is not an easy one to solve without incurring costs of some sort. Firstly, look at the hazards then assess the risks i.e a fire risk assessment. Be honest with yourself and ask the question 'am I competent to do this'. The fire services are reluctant to get involved as this will now have repercussions under the RR(FS)O. It would be embarrassing for them if they had to enforce the law when they have given the advice! but give them a call anyway. Alternatively, contact a specialist consultant (this is not a direct plug for business). Look at the Institution of Fire Engineers (IFE) web site for details of accredited fire risk assessors (life safety), there are about 60 of us across the country.

Posted By Merv Newman I agree with Ken. This is not a fire prevention or extinction problem. It is behavioural. And no local authority is going to spend thousands of pounds on installing sprinklers or making fire-proof rooms just to (possibly) safe the lives of a few difficult kids. And yes, I am being cynical there. Sally is talking about what happens during fire drills. Some kids don't cooperate. This also happens in plants and offices. Some adults don't cooperate. ("push off, I'm on the phone to a client. And can you stop ringing those (expletive deleted) bells") Fire drills are to train people on what to do and to discover the problems. We now, through a drill, discover that we have a number of people who may need dragging out by their hair. Once discovered we can plan and deal with it. Either by making fire drills fun and rewarding or by dragging them out by their hair. (I exagerate for dramatic effect, of course) Merv

Posted By Bob Shillabeer Hi, Not had any experience in educational buildings, but, have you thought about the design and location of the building. Cost will dictate but why not engineer the problem such as a ground floor building of a suitable construction to prevent fire spread, etc. The answer is surely to eliminate the risk of fire in the first place and operate strict fire control regimes.

Posted By Holly McDermott Shaun Thats fine but Sally still needs to evacuate the building.

Posted By Brian Hagyard Sally. Why do the children lie down and not co-operate is it the sound of the bell/siren that triggers the response? If so why not look at other system's that alert the people who will need to supervise the evacuation, i.e. the staff, then maybe as other's have suggested the evacuation will be fun and not scary. My first thought would be a pager system. I would imagine that some of the bigger companies will have some suggestions. I attended a talk at the IOSH conference a few years ago about a system to alert people with hearing difficulties, sorry don't remember the companies name. Yes you will have to run any suggestion past the fire service, but I thought the whole issue was about risk assessment these day's and your alert system does not have to be bells and sirens anymore. Good luck with finding a working solution. Brian.

Posted By Gillian Lloyd As mentioned in a previous response ~ IF there are sufficient fire precautions in place to protect the person in their rooms, could they not be left in safety until the fire service arrives?

Posted By Merv Newman Right. I'm going to have to be very firm here. Sally finds herself in a situation where children do not respond as we would like to a fire alarm. No way is an LA going to spend out on sprinklers or fire-proof rooms or whatever. No way. Sally has to deal with it. Most of the kids will respond normally to a drill if lead by carers they trust. The others will, in a real fire situation, be have to be dragged out by their hair. Like it or not. If it is only a drill than that is a totally different situation. Leave them there, count them amongst the "dead" and work out how you are going to handle them when the real fire happens. Fire drills are "an opportunity for learning" Merv I've never worked with handicapped or unstable kids. Sympathy to Sally. My major problems usually came from self important PHDs. Who could do a lot of metaphorical "laying on the floor and kicking their heels" Don't you just wish you could give them a good smacking ? Ooooh ! Merv

Posted By shaun mckeever OK - My turn to get firm! There is not enough information here to inform us of how many will be difficult and how many staff will be available to:- 1. assist in removing difficult children; 2. take control of those who have left the building; 3. meet the fire brigade on their arrival; 4. carry out sweep of remainder of building; 5. tackle incident (now this part will generate more comment). Now turning to the fire risk assessment. It must be 'suitable and sufficient'. It must demonstrate that there are robust means for safely evacuating the building in the event of fire. Offering sweets or some similar inducement, in my view (as an ex enforcing officer), will not stand up to the test of being 'suitable and sufficient'. Now I offer a sprinkler and detection system as one solution. It will stand up to the test. I would be the first to say it is not the only solution but very little of the above would be acceptable. Ashley and Ken both have fire safety backgrounds and give good advice. It is the repsonsibility of the Local Authority to support Sally, if they can't then they must assume responsibility. They have a duty to ensure there are safe means of escape available. If that means they have to spend money to do so then that is what they will have to do. Grrrr.

Posted By Sally Shaun, sorry to complicate matters but in this case I am the local authority. I'm trying to help schools with this. But I've now got lots more ideas on how to!! This is what this forum is really good for.

Posted By Holly McDermott Yes Shaun But what are thoughts on how to get the people out of the building

Posted By Hugo Hi Sally, I agree with Shaun on the suggestion of room exits--- leave the building by the nearest exit! The alarm sounder may cause confusion and the children may sense the teacher/carer concern or panic. therefor the old ones are best - get out, stay out and get the fire brigade out! I came across a similar situation and you must consult your local fire authority on this matter. A similar life risk was within my area of responsibility and we gave it particular attention. Fire crews must familiarise themselves with the buildings - the local inspecting officer can recommend a higher than normal turn out of resources and this is a necessity! The attendance time if remote or rural will be greater than the 5 minutes statutory attendance for inner city. If it is remote and it is unlikely then engineering/ escape measures must be considered - ie, room evacuation. Even if the children were evacuated into a corrider, there will still be limited control. Therefore extra attendance and special risk status must be applied. Note, the door to the classroom will be a minimum of 30 minutes protection. Refuge is a consideration however against normal practice. Finally local sprinklers are available - stored pressure and stored water supply with compressed air, designed for the US domestic market. Visits - prepare - drill - drill

Posted By Merv Newman Good thoughts from Hugo. But we must remember that the LA will not, I repeat, will not pay out one penny for extra protections or precautions. They will however hire a very expensive consultant to write you a procedure. Cynical ? what me ? Trust me. I'm a consultant Merv Actually, yes. As Hugo suggests talk to your local fire officer, make him/her aware of the problem and get his/her advice. Then let them drag the recalcitrants out by their hair. This advice may seem reactionary or whatever to some (mistreating disadvantaged children) but in an emergency situation I really cannot see another way of saving their lives. Parents have been known to throw their kids out of the (burning) bed room window, hoping that a fire man will catch them. is that mistreatment ? As before, in a drill let them lay and plan for real life. Merv