Posted By RP
The only time wood working machines can have guards removed is for maintenance and changing the tooling/cutters.

Systems of work should include:

1. Only permitted employees to set up machines.
2. Machine is isolated and locked off to prevent use during maintenance and tooling changes.
3. Sufficient training, information and supervision.

Ref: HSE- wood Machines

Posted By peter gotch
Hi Martin

The setters of power presses, CNC machines and robots all argue along similar lines. Saves time to override the interlocks, but is generally not necessary.

Regards, Peter

Posted By Robert K Lewis
Martin

My experience is that it is really not necessary to adjust the settings with the tool in motion. The use of jigs etc enable the task to be done successfully. It is slower but saves the problem of missing finger bits. Surprisingly many young woodworking machinists in the late 80s still seemed to have some parts missing because it would only take a few seconds. Most did not know it had happened until they noticed the blood!!

I think you need to remind your people how easy it is to remove a finger.

Bob

Posted By Steve Cartwright
Martin

In a previous life I was a wood machinist for 8 years. Seen a few fingers and thumbs go missing, thankfully non of them mine.

Do not recommend overriding inter locking guards or any of the other guards for that matter. No defence, large fines etc if there is an accident. Trust me the same people who are telling you it can't be done will be the first to put a claim in if it happens to them.

Have a look on the HSE website, plenty of information on wood machines.

What machines are they talking about?

They can all be set up with the guards in place and isolated.

Posted By Robert K Lewis
Tabs/Peter

I think you will be unlikely to find tool set up procedures in the machine handbook, much of this used to be covered i n the old training programme for woodworking machinists, which unfortunately has expired in the welter of NVQs etc.

Good machinists do not set up the machine while it is running. They do the set up with the machine (of whatever type) stationary and they then use a test piece held in a jig, before replacing all the guards, to determine the accuracy of the settings.

Unfortunately we have become so tied into a belief that handbooks will tell us all that the need for competent people seems irrelevant. None of these machines should be operated by a non-competent person, except for trainees undergoing training who under direct supervision of a competent person, the people described by the poster a clearly neither competent nor trainees.

These machines are highly dangerous even with the guards in place as the cutting edge has to be exposed in order to do the work, irrespective of guarding, reliance on the handbook suggests that most people can then follow instructions to do the task.

I suppose that at the end of the day the problem is symptomatic of the whole question of the new ways to teach craft trades. A 6 month NVQ equips you as this or that trade. It does not however make you competent which is what time served trades persons achieved at the end of their time. But I ramble and am on my soapbox:-)

Bob

Posted By Tabs
I missed a point (or two)...

I was not suggesting a handbook would make anyone competent. I was not suggesting that anyone other than a competent person should try to set the machines.

I *was* suggesting that the people Martin was talking to were choosing an incompetent method which could be verified by reference to the guidance of the manufacturer - clearly Martin does not know if the fitter is telling him the truth or trying to blag away bad habits.

Even a safety advisor is competent enough to compare recommendations to practices and make a judgement call.

No hard feelings Bob, I understand the differences, but I also know what setters are like ;-)

Posted By Peter Leese
The first stop has always got to be see if there is a manufacturers handbook - and if there is, to see if it is any use.

The first step on this discussion has been to pre-judge, then to say there won't be a handbook, and if there is it it won't cover the relevant points!

Mmmmmm.

Bob, you might have not heard for a long time that you need to run the equipment to set it up, but believe me a large number of machine shops do just that.

Any risk assessment we have done on ww equipment (where it is necessary) takes this into account. You may not like it but it happens and is sometimes essential - it has to be worked around and made as safe as possible.

I remember 4 or 5 years ago talking to an HSE inspector about the operative of a dimension saw - and the inspector statement that the whole of the blade had to be guarded at all times. I asked him if he was experienced on dim saws - he said he was!

Posted By Martin Taylor
everybody - thanks very much for this level of discussion - I clearly need to revisit what is planned and what I am being told.

Interesting how when you think you've got the hang of this safety business you recognise how there is no substitute for expertise on so many things but if those with the expertise don't have the safety insight how easy it is to get into problems

Please keep the discussion going

Martin