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#1 Posted : 11 April 2007 13:55:00(UTC)
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Posted By holmezy Hi All, last week I had a query re face velocity, and since then things have moved on a bit. There is a currently a HSE target area regarding silica dust. My company process's stone and also sells equipment and we have had a visit recently from the HSE, and basically were ok. However, many of our customers have also had visits and "allegedly" have been told that their dust extraction system (wet cabinet) is either, depending on location; a) absolutely fantastic, does a great job (down south) or b)totally inadeaquate, (up North) The reason for the "inadequate" comment has been that it doesnt have enough air flow. Some customers have had a requirement for 2m cubed per second verbally quoted to them, but no-one seems to know where this figure comes from. Also, I cant understand how someone can say this without actually testing the air flow. Our sales chaps are getting lots of flak and hassle from existing customers and potential new ones regarding the performance and have passed it on to me. All I can find re recommended airflow rates is from COSHH essentials ST3 which states airspeed 1 - 1.5 m per sec. Whats the correlation between air speed and cubic meters per second? Where do I find more info? I've ordered the LEV guidance from HSE books but it wont be here for a few days. Also had a quote from a customer saying that the comment he had from the inspector was that "absolutely no dust is allowed" so why the minimum level of 0.1mg/m3? I've measured the air speed of one of said cabinets and it is approximately 3m/sec over an area of approx 1sq/m so what does that give me? I'm starting to feel a little bewildered!! Holmezy
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#2 Posted : 11 April 2007 14:24:00(UTC)
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Posted By Derek Pratt Holmezy Airflow (m3/s) = area of opening (m2) x airspeed (m/s). 3m/s over 1m2 gives you 3m3/s, which is probably more than adequate, depending on individual circumstances, such as direction and ejection speed of the dust. 'Absolutely no dust' is unrealistic, that's why we have exposure levels. A simple way to check effectiveness is to turn off any room lights, shine a bright light across the front of the extraction system and look at the beam from a slight angle, shielding your eyes from the light with a piece of cardboard. Dust particles show up in the same way as they do in a shaft of sunlight. Try 'airflow' in the search engine of HSE's web page. Derek Pratt
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#3 Posted : 11 April 2007 14:50:00(UTC)
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Posted By Chris Packham A good starting point could be HS/G37 "An introduction to local exhaust ventilation". Since this is an HSE publication, can they then argue? Chris
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#4 Posted : 11 April 2007 15:35:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter Holmezy HSG37 will provide some general guidance on LEV systems, including capture and transport velocities for a range of substances, but will not tell you what the flowrate for a particular system should be; that will depend on many factors. The ACGIH Manual of Industrial Ventilation would tell you a lot more but it is a lot more expensive. The WEL for crystalline silica is 0.3 mg/m3 but, like all substances with WELs, exposures must be kept as far below the limit as reasonably practicable. Perhaps you and your customers would benefit from a visit by an occupational hygienist like myself. Paul
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#5 Posted : 11 April 2007 15:49:00(UTC)
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Posted By holmezy Derek, I agree with you wholeheartedly re the "no dust" statement. Calcs just back up what I thought. Chris, got that on order plus another re LEV etc but wont be here til next week. Paul, I agree that all sorts of factors can influence the flowrates etc which is why I can't understand how an inspector can say that its not adequate, or for that matter, that its ecxcellent, just by looking at it. So far, none of our customers have had anything in writing from the HSE, just told that its not good enough and it should be 2m/sec??. I cant find any reference to 2m/s (and if my calcs are correct our machines give 3m/sec) but there are quite an angry bunch of customers at the moment. I thought the limit was 0.1mg/m3 for RCS? Holmezy
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#6 Posted : 11 April 2007 15:56:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter Holmezy Sorry, I forgot to check the addendum to my copy of EH40 before replying to your posting; the limit is indeed 0.1 mg/m3. Paul
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#7 Posted : 11 April 2007 16:34:00(UTC)
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Posted By carol hanks The 2m/s you are being quoted is the generally accepted capture velocity for fine dusts, i.e. the velocity required at the point of dust generation for effective capture. This is not the same as the face velocity of a hood or inlet. As Paul says, you probably need advice from an occupational hygienist as the important point to note is the exposure limit relates to respirable crystalline silica, not to "dust" generated by the process.
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#8 Posted : 11 April 2007 16:43:00(UTC)
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Posted By holmezy Carol, thanks for that, however,,,,it may be the generally accepted capture velocity, but where is it written down? ST3 COSHH Essentials states an inward airspedd of 1 to 1.5 m/sec which is easily achieved by our equipment. Still dont understand how people can just say that its not adequate on a whim? And why the difference in opinion between North and South? Fed up now, going home for a beer! thanks all holmezy
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#9 Posted : 11 April 2007 16:47:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter Holmezy HSG37 tabulates a range of capture velocities so I hope your copy arrives soon! Paul
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#10 Posted : 11 April 2007 17:15:00(UTC)
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Posted By Chris Packham I was looking through my notes and came across the following: ACGIH recommended velocities: 5 -10 m/sec for vapours 10-13 m/s for fume 12-15 m/s for very light fine dust. However, all such figures need to be treated with caution. Much will also depend upon other factors, such as: a) interference from ambient air flow, e.g. wind, drafts etc. b) dynamic effects of particles, e.g. if being thrown out at speed away from the capture hood. So I concur with others - this is an area where independent specialist advice is needed. I well remember my mentor on ventilation and extraction (Frank Gill) once saying to me: "I don't often design a system from scratch. I tend to make my living from putting right other people's mistakes." My own experience supports this as it is all too often that I see systems that could never have worked, sometimes even installed by supposedly expert firms. Chris
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#11 Posted : 11 April 2007 17:20:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter Chris If my memory serves me well (and it often doesn't!), those are transport (or duct) velocities, aren't they? Paul
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#12 Posted : 11 April 2007 17:33:00(UTC)
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Posted By Chris Packham Paul You are probably right. My notes (now very old) don't actually say! Chris
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