Posted By Bob Shillabeer Hi, Don't wish to sound rude but dynamic risk assessment, Mmmm, is that not make it up on the day stuff? Seriously should you not consider generic risk assesments as a first instance with other staff trained to do dynamic assesments where the circumstances require? How do you know the Dynamics have been done ? Is there a need to record them? If not how can you demonstrated they have been done at all and how can you demonstrate they are suitable and sufficent??? Bob.

Posted By Bob Shillabeer Bingo, Thanks Robert you saw my point. Being dynamic is a specific skill that cannot be used by anyone, you need to have the skills in order to make them of any validity at all. The fire service do dynamic assesments all the time it's part of thier training. Fires etc don't behave in a set way so risks change but there are basics they need to understand before any dynamic assessments gain any value at all. Do the generic assesments and train staff to make further judgements as and when necessary. You will be measured by any H&S inspector (HSE or Local Enforcement) on the basis of the original not the dynamic assesment. In short get the basics right and your almost there.

Posted By Bob Shillabeer Hi Robert, I share your concerns about skating on thin ice, but are you saying the fire service undertake a written dynamic assessment. That's a new concept, having time to record the dynamic assessment indicates to me that they are planning someting which is a moving feast. The important thing about dynamic assessments is thier habit of changing according to prevailing conditions. My understanding is they are fluid affairs and need people with specific competence and knowledge of the senario.

Posted By ian mcnally 599 people have read this posting, only two have been prepared to offer an opinion and neither of those were prepared to offer a clear view (other than to have a debate about the value of dynamic risk assessment versus generic/specific) I thought somebody would have been prepared to actually offer some views to the question, even with copious amounts of caveats. Perhaps all the practical safety advisors are too busy, out working, or maybe just thought it was such an obvious answer it didn’t merit / deserve a response. You may want to read on to find why I posted the question at all..…… Whilst travelling on a packed tube the other day, I was surprised overhear two client safety advisors discussing this issue and both agreed there was no way they should allow a certain contractor to replace a roof tile on a 2 storey house from a roof ladder as “it would be breaking every regulation in the book” not my words. They insisted that the contractor should use a MEWP or provide a full scaffold and had a good laugh that they were not prepared to pay his costs. I did not ever find out if the tile was at the rear of the house or in a location where a MEWP was out of the question. I bit my lip at the time but wondered if my views were just plain out of touch and so was keen to get a broader perception on working from roof ladders. A roof tile weighs less than many battery drills and can be replaced in minutes. Erecting scaffolding is not without risk and has anyone seen one tile being replaced while working from a MEWP. Had the task been to retile a section of the roof or re-point a chimney while working from a roof ladder then of course that would have been completely different and not an option, but one roof tile! Over the years in the construction industry I’ve tried to provide practical safety advice/solutions to enable organisations to simply get the job done in a safe and controlled way, funnily enough I thought that way part of my remit. Perhaps I’m just missing the point but your views would be much appreciated. Oh and Bob, I withdrew generic risk assessment four years ago as these did not ensure the operatives engaged the grey matter before they undertook the tasks. Now they have to carry out each risk assessment before they do the job, so I guess they do it on the day (not make it up) but then I always thought that had to be an advantage not a negative, and all of these guys have attended specific training to undertake the works and risk assessment and yes we do audit our maintenance guys every month to check the risk assessments are appropriate for the task. We have separate safe working practice sheets / method statements which are also required to be completed as these are not entirely generic and require input. I actually nicked the principle of developing dynamic R/As from the Fire Service and just formalised them. Despite holding our Fire Service crews in very high regard my question was not related to them at all. Now I’ve answered most of your questions Bob what about coming off the fence? Any other views form those 598 would be great too. I may have just stirred up a hornets nest here but have a good weekend all. Ian

Posted By Pugwash These are simple questions, they need simple answers. "I would be interested to hear views on whether such works of short duration can be safely carried out from a suitable and maintained roof ladder given those involved have had suitable training and use suitably secured ladders to access it." Of course they can be carried out in the way described and roofers/slaters are doing so across the country every day. Had a slater on my roof last month doing just this. What is the problem? And Bob and Robert, with the greatest respect to you both, what are you going on about? We are supposed to be giving advice to people who mend roofs for a living. Dynamic assessments, generic assessments, standard assessments, specific assessments, working in tandem and with feedback loops informing the future standard assessment! While you have been doing all this, the slater has been up on the roof, changed the tile, got back in his van and is already on the way to the next job. If we have experienced and trained people with the right types of ladders, let them use their experience and training and get on with it. The HSE call it sensible health and safety. I think I do too.

Posted By Granville Jenkins What you have at the moment are 'generic' risk assessments that cover 'all ill's' this is fine (up to a point) when a company is trying to sell itself to a client, but is next to useless when it comes to carrying out the site specific tasks and you will fall foul of the HSE if you rely upon 'generic' assessments especially if an accident occurs because it was not covered in the generic safe system of work. The fire brigade carry out dynamic risk assessments or if you wish 'on the spot' risk assessments for the simple reason that they do not know what issues they are going to be confronted with until the point in time when they arrive on site and may only have minutes in which to form a plan of action, I suspect that in some extreme situations the writing up of their risk assessment is a 'post event', however, in contrast roof repairs would not fall into this category and there would be sufficient time for a competent person to visit site and carry out a 'site specific' risk assessment and complete a safe system of work prior to any works being commenced. As for the working at height issues, the use of roof ladders etc. should be a last resort especially where such work is carried out on a regular basis (if it was a one off event you could mitigate the circumstances of 'reasonably practicable' however, as your organisation carries out such works on a regular basis there will be an increase in the likelihood of an event occurring and the company will need to consider other safer methods of roof access, be it scaffold, cherry picker (MEWP) or other methods such as abseiling. For example I have a problem getting physical access to rear roof and the only solution I have been able to come up with is an abseiling technique where a 'counter-balance weight is used with a fall restraint harness (not fall arrest). The counter-weight is on the opposite side of the building to the operator and the lifeline is slung over the roof, this is the only method by which I can gain access and prevent a fall from height. Regards Granville

Posted By John Murgatroyd http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2005/e05141.htm