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Posted By Graham Watson
Hi
In the postings on the High Shelving thread there was a comment by M J Mathews about unpaid advice being very expensive when things go wrong.
I was reminded of a friend of mine who is the head of a health and safety department in a company doing similar work to the company I work for, all be in a much larger concern than mine. I often ask his advice since he's much more experienced (not to say qualified) than I am.
Anyway he is always very helpful, but he always prefaces his advice with the phrase 'without prejudice'. I take this to mean that he’s not to be held responsible if I choose to take his advice and it all goes pear shaped. I certainly wouldn’t dream of pointing the finger and saying it’s his fault not mine. But then when things turn really nasty (as seems to happen occasionally in this game) I don’t know how I’d react.
My question is, is this a sensible way to behave, and will his ‘without prejudice’ phrase help him if (God forbid) it all really did all go horribly wrong?
(Something, I must admit, which is making me think twice about a career in H&S.)
Just a thought I hoped may stimulate some discussion.
BTW
Thanks to all the contributors to these threads, this is a fantastic resource.
Graham
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Posted By Darren J Fraser
It is exactly as you have stated - free advice
It is entirely up to you whether you decide to take it or not, and therefore IMHO the person giving the advice cannot be held responsible.
Example -
Scenario 1
You encounter a problem that you are unsure how to deal with. You seek free advice from a colleague or text book, you apply that advice as you understand it and the problem is made worse - person at fault - you for applying the wrong principles.
Scenario 2
You encounter the same problem that you are unsure how to deal with. You seek paid advice from a consultant, you apply that advice as you understand it and the problem is made worse - person at fault - the consultant for providing the wrong advice.
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Posted By rks
I was the person who posted about the shelving.
The friend in question is starting a new business and as he knows that I am a H&S practitioner he asked me for a bit of advice which I have duly obliged.
On the premise that the poster said that I should be careful it is only the same as when asking for advice on here and the people who have said use aircraft steps should be careful offering their advice.
Are we going to get to a situation where if you reply to a posting you have to have your own PI insurance. I think not.
Regards
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Posted By CWCaz
This is interesting - surely you cannot rationalise your failings in health & safety with 'he told me to do it'.
I as an advisor can just advocate - only Enforcement officers can 'make you do it', therefore if they do or do not follow an advisors recommendations, the duty holder will be soley responsible responsible? As mentioned above as well, there is the possibility of that company/person(s) advisor being prosecuted under the HSWA for failing to do their job properly...
So putting in to place unpaid or paid advice surely cannot leave you with a sour taste in the mouth - as it is down to you surely to ensure that it is correct...?
Confused!?
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Posted By J Knight
Since even enforcement officers can give faulty advice and not be liable for it, I think that as long as we are clear that we offer is merely advice, and only an opinion, we should be OK,
John
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Posted By MetalMan
Hi Graham, a good saying I heard a lot in the Royal Air Force was "Never assume, check!" If someone gives you a bit of advice and it's something important, check it out yourself before going with it.
The thing is with this line of work, as with many other types of work is that you have to stick your neck on the block from time to time. Through training, knowledge, experience, and knowing where to look to find out information etc. you will build up the confidence to trust your own judgement. People who worry about every little detail in case they get it wrong end up risk assessing things like making coffee and using pencil sharpeners.
A miserable existance!
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Posted By James365
The term "without predjudice" is generally used in written legal correspondence to indicate that no legal rights or privileges have been determined, waived, or lost through what has been written (see also "all rights reserved" or "consumer rights not affected").
I would doubt its value in 1-1 spoken conversations as it is not witnessed in the event of a dispute arising.
As far as incurring liability for free advice, I would be inclined to suggest that if the information is given "free" by a recognised competent person, then there is, in principle, a potential liability which would be attached - not solely, but at least in part. You wouldn't ask your butcher for advice on verruccas, and rely on that information as being from a qualified medical practitioner, would you?
Still, the original premise is an interesting one that will undoubtedly be tested at law one day.
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Posted By Bill Parkinson
Think we need to consider in terms of advice which is given. I am careful not to give any advice whether (paid or not) which is outside my areas of competence as there have been cases of liabilities being incurred when things go wrong.
As long as advice is given on that basis it is simply advice and upto the individuals concerned to consider it (and check if required).
Regards
Bill
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Posted By Pete48
As far as this forum is concerned this is what is written at the top of the forum page.
"Messages posted on the forums do not constitute advice and do not reflect the values of IOSH. Postings made by forum users should not be relied upon in making or refraining from making any decision."
I would guess that is the one of the reasons why many do feel comfortable giving opinion on this forum?
Same with friend and mates really, just make sure they understand what you are actually doing. Using "legal" phrases is unlikey to cover it.
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