Posted By John Hatfield Hopefully an easy to answer question for a friday. An employee stumbles in the works car park on his way in to work. Is he at work?

Posted By peter gotch Hi John H. In my book, probably not. Still commuting. Regards, Peter

Posted By Martyn Hendrie If his entire job is carried out within the confines of the office/ factory I agree with Peter. However, if he was say a sales rep who had visited a client on route to the office then he is at work. If he was a sales rep who had not carried out any work activity on route to the premises he would not be at work.

Posted By Tracey C Is this question being asked for reporting purposes or compensation purposes? Would that persons working hours come into it? I am only aksing the question because my collegue and i have just had this discussion. Our working hours are 8.45am to 5.45pm but we both get into the office around 7.30am what happened if we tripped in the car park would our hours of work be taken into consideration? Don't want to complicate things but was just curious to other safety professionals thoughts. Regards T

Posted By Bob Shillabeer Be pragmatic about this, If the person concerned was going to report for work, class it as being in work, if not its a visit to the premises. Are you not looking at the cause or are you trying to get out of responsibility. If the latter you are on a loser, employer's liability comes well into focus I'm afraid.

Posted By Lilian McCartney Hi John, What about safe access and egress? A distant memory I have is off a policewoman falling in the car park of the police station on her way home and this was taken as being at work as far as I can remember under the safe egress. I believe whilst she was in the station someone had dug a hole outside and it wasn't signed etc (hole was meant to be there though not just a 'trap' - just in case someone thinks it was a joke). I reckon they were at work

Posted By peter gotch 1 Hi John Fully agree with various comments above re invetigating and finding appropriate remedial actions [if any] but getting back to your original question and follow up. I think injury NOT reportable. However, if in doubt, report. You can be prosecuted for not reporting, you can't be prosecuting something that is not reportable. Whichever, you are you are not going to upset the stats given the proven level of underreporting of RIDDDOR reportables [about 2 of 3] P

Posted By Philip McAleenan Whether he was at work or not is immaterial, certainly within the context of the material facts presented. The employee “stumbles”. That is all that is stated about the physical event. The act of stumbling is in general, in and off the individual himself, i.e. he or she walks unsteadily or clumsily, and in this instance, it could be inferred that it was a momentary occurrence. The cause for stumbling as a prolonged event may be internal, i.e. a condition leading to dizziness, e.g. vertigo, or external, such as walking across a very uneven surface e.g. a stony beach, without due care. However, as a momentary event, stumbles involve a disruption to balance that is quickly regained with no ill effects to the individual. Stumbling, which is distinguished from both “tripping” and “falling”, is of itself is non-injurious. For it to be injurious it must be combined with addition events that in combination cause harm, e.g. he stumbled AND fell AND broke his arm. Move the scenario to mid-morning after their shift had started. They are definitely at work, but again a mere “stumble” by an individual who quickly regains their balance (as the term implies) has no adverse ramifications for either the individual or for the employer. It is only when stumbling becomes a regular occurrence with that individual, or happens to many employees in similar circumstances, that it becomes a matter for investigation. Remember that as adults competent in the art of walking we are personally responsible for ensuring that we exercise that art competently, and when appropriate take responsibility for our failure to act/walk properly. Too busy at work on Friday but a nice intellectual exercise for a Sunday morning John. Hope the debate helps, Regards, Philip

Posted By Tabs At work. Reason: He is subject to the company rules as soon as he enters the area controlled by the company. If the Security, or the Managing Director told him to move his car, he would be obliged to comply. If he got a BBQ out and the MD told him to put it out, he would be obliged to comply. Start/finish times don't come into it - look at the office event in the local pub: if the employee is to some extent obliged to follow the directions of management, then it is considered to be "at work" (paraphrasing a lot).

Posted By The toecap Surely an occupiers liability type scenario also. I would say not at work as the question is was he being paid for that time he stumbled? Just a thought.

Posted By J Knight Hi Philip, Sorry, I remain unconvinced and suggest that stumbles has a vernacular sense which is considerably wider than the one you propose, and reading John's post there's no reason to suppose that he was using it in any other than this simple sense. Agree that detail is important, but over-interpretation doesn't necessarily take this thread forward (in my opinion), Joh

Posted By Dave Wilson Dont take the HSE helpline for this as they always say report!

Posted By John-Mark I can't understand why there's so much discussion over this. The simple answer is: if in doubt, report it and let the relevant enforcing authority decide whether its reportable or not. JM

Posted By Steve Cartwright If the Company controls the car park and the car park is on company property then yes report it. Does not matter if he/she was on there way home or coming into work, if it happens on company property you have to report it wether they were there legally or illegally. If car park is owned/managed by someone else then no you don't have to report it. If they had stumbled outside their front door on there way to work you would not report it. If they are seriously injured on a public highway on there way to work you would not report it. Hope this helps

Posted By Shaun Brennan I think it also depends on his place of work, but i would say "he was at work", duty of care would definitely come into the equation Bugsy