Posted By Warren Shaw Our local carnival organisers have been informed that the insurance company providing liability cover for the event will not allow children to ride on the floats for reasons of safety. The floats are flat bed lorries supplied by local companies. The children spend time dressing the lorry and themselves in theme to join a parade through the town that lasts 30-45mins. This event has occurred each year without any accidents to my knowledge. My advice would be Change insurers? Ask the insurers what safety measures to put in place so as to receive cover? I think I know the answers but would be pleased to receive suggestions Cheers

Posted By PH In my opinion, insurance companies do more damage to the H&S profession than any newspaper, over the top local authority etc. etc. Surely risk management is the same whether we are talking H&S, financial or otherwise. (Some)insurance companies seem to apply the theory that whatever the risk - ban it, regardless of what control measures are or can be put in place. Risk aversion wins again!! P

Posted By CFT Warren Might this be similar to the 'Bridgwater Guy Fawkes Carnival'? I ask as I have some contacts with the CC that may be able to help you. CFT

Posted By Bill Parkinson Have you asked your insurers as to what you need to do so they will provide cover (i.e. edge protection, safety barriers etc)? If they are unwilling to discuss anything then would look to change insurers.

Posted By PH So insurance companies don't use the risk of an accident as an excuse to simply drive up premiums to a point where things like carnivals become financially impossible. And of course, insurance companies never overrule company H&S teams who believe there is a civil case worth fighting, just because it is cheaper to settle out of court. Or am I just being cynical? :)

Posted By PH I agree, doesn't make it right though.

Posted By PH Again I agree. But all this does is help create a risk averse attitude which long term is very damaging, not just for H&S as a profession but also society on a wider scale. In my(very)humble opinion.

Posted By Merv Newman John Allen, very interesting information. Thanks. Actually, I think that all of the risk CONTROL measures mentioned above are good, valid suggestions. As is negotiating with your insurers. The thought of children falling off the back of a flat bed and possibly under the wheels does upset me. please borrow a few scaffold poles from the local builders and ask them to help with installation. (free advertising placard on the lorry ?) Merv

Posted By Ian P After years of providing cover for similar events our insurers refused it . As my organisation organises quite a few of these in different locations throughout the year this could have had serious implications. After discussing it with our brokers it turned out that it was a knee jerk reaction from a particular underwriter because of the transport involved. After speaking to a more senior one and asking if anything else was needed than was already in place in the risk assessment the decision was reversed. I would definitely go back to your insurers.

Posted By PH I disagree that it is lack of commercial savvy that creates insurance bashing. The simple fact of the matter is that some insurance companies will contradict the basic principles of H&S management. For (a very simple)example: H&S practitioner risk assesses event. Recommends sensible and cost effective control measures. Insurance company demands silly premiums. Event is cancelled. H&S is blamed, conkers bonkers headline in paper. I know it is not always as simplistic as this, but is also wrong to suggest that just because someone is cynical means they don't know what they are talking about.

Posted By PH Not on my salary!! :)

Posted By Sean Fraser Interesting debate. Certainly, as an "oppressed minority" ourselves in UK workplaces, we as a profession feel the need to transfer the blame - not us guv, it's the jobsworth in the insurance company innit!? Those on the receiving end don't always learn from the experience and are quite willing to dish it out - in spades! After all, as we keep proclaiming, we are only human ourselves. And I can be just as guilty of it on occasion. Of course insurance risk calculation is a specialist subject, but like any economic based calculation it isn't an exact science. In many ways, it isn't that much different from any other form of speculation, from the Stock Market to your local turf accountants. But we need to understand why many H&S people have a cynical view of insurance, rather than simply dismiss them. And the reasons are the same as for everything else in business and sport - incompetence, inexperience, inconsistency. Some firms are very professional and highly skilled - others run on a wing and a prayer. Some rely heavily on sophisticated computer technology - others on good old human judgement (though a good one would combine both, in my opinion). Some will analyse to the nth degree, incorporating every possible factor no matter how remote - some will base it on three general factors and gentleman's agreement. Horses for courses. At the end of the day, one financial ruling will continue to apply - you will get what you pay for. By all means find the lowest quote, but make sure it will cover you for an event that is reasonably foreseeable. A decent broker/insurer will be happy to discuss risk and make sure that they quote the right premium that provides you with the cover you need and gives them a premium they can afford should it go pear-shaped and they have to pay out. My tuppence worth.