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Posted By DRB
The IOM TT race will shortly be upon us. My question for you all is should the "Mad Sunday" event where the public are allowed to race round the track be allowed?
There have been over 200 deaths, not all of which have been riders. Some have been stewards or members of the public.
On the plus side this is a big event for the IOM bringing in much needed tourism.
Discuss...
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Posted By Tabs
I don't like that people think they are entitled to ban dangerous sports to begin with.
What's next? swimming? sky-diving? SCUBA diving? caving? cheese rolling?
Why limit it to sports? why not ban driving? air travel? ships?
If these people want to do it, and the spectators want to stand in the dangerous spots because of the better view, so be it. Those using the roads in this one place, on one day of the year, should consider the well-publicised nature of the day - and whether they wish to be part of such.
I will be concentrating on the workplace.
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Posted By DRB
Interesting comments Tabs but so far as the Stewards are concerned isn't this a workplace?
I'm not disagreeing with you. I think a lot of harm is done in the name of "ELF AN SAFETY" and do all I can to encourage my kids to participate in sport. I myself enjoy squash, rugby and 5 aside football. All of which have led to an injury at some time.
But the level of risk in most activities, including cheese rolling, is surely significantly lower than racing around normal roads at up to 200mph with only a straw bale between the rider/bike and pedestrians
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Posted By andy bee
Think we need to realize that to many people, me included motorcycles are a way of life, and the dangers that come with it are all part and parcel of the package. Recent statistics have show that motorcycles are less dangerous than horses, so do we ban horse racing?
all the best
andy
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Ever heard of individuals accepting that what they do voluntarily can be dangerous and also accepting that risk?? Thier insurance company may well take a different view. To my recolection no one is at work at this event as it is manned by volunteers who fully understand that it may be dangerous to stand on the side of the road with nutters doing 100mph or so on roads normally used at 30. Don't see the point myself, but each to his own
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Posted By CFT
As a HD owner and rider I ain't never going to do the TT, but given the opportunity on a high powered sports bike I would be there like a shot and I'm supposed to be a responsible adult of 52 years. Tabs & Andy get my vote, particularly Tabs.
CFT
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Posted By Lilian McCartney
I have a few points,
Do they publicise it's dangerous and that the bikes have off the road and hit people before or is it only publicised as being on?
Volunteers can be counted as employees for H&S reasons in certain circumstances so the stewards might be covered.
Particpants are making their own decisions so long as they know there are some poeple likely to be riding who maybe aren't quite as competent as themselves and could involve them in an accident.
I've always wanted a shot on a fast bike.
I was once asked about a hill run where they competitors thought the usual track was quite easy and wanted to run along side a quarry. We put t his in the joining instructions for the race runners (on their maps etc) and had stewards at beginning and end of this stage to call for help if someone did fall. Worked quite well - no current knowwledge of this.
Lilian
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Posted By Mike
Getting back to "Mad Sunday" and setting aside the issue of racing safety which is slightly off topic, the controls applied on this special day go back more than 30 years. The mountain section is one way (nowhere else) and 30 mph urban speed limits are strictly enforced. There will still be idiots but the alternative is not to designate a day when everyone is super-aware of risks. The existence of Mad Sunday means that the madness is reduced at those other times when the roads are not closed for practice/racing. I don't see what else the highway authority and the police can do. I don't uderstand the reference to stewards in connection with "Mad Sunday". They don't have any role as far as I know. During racing yes - since there was an extremely rare steward fatality last year.
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Posted By Pete48
TT reminds me of the four "T"s of risk management.
Tolerate, treat, transfer, terminate. I am constantly dismayed by the common failure of concentrating on only the fourth "T". Risk is unavoidable and every organisation needs to take action to manage risk in a way which it can justify to a level which is tolerable.
I venture to suggest that is just what happens with regard to "mad Sunday". The controls are set at a tolerable level and risks accordingly.
A high risk of accidents and a high fatality rate goes with riding motor cycles on every day of the year everywhere they are ridden. (not especially from the bike riders by the way!)
Any takers for whether riding on mad Sunday is actually a lower risk to the riders than any other day?? And what about all those spectators? How does standing alongside the TT race compare to walking to work every day alongside an urban dual carriageway with no barrier protection?
Risk is unavoidable but is manageable. Long live Mad Sunday, the TT races, Monte Carlo GP and walking to work alongside that urban dual carriageway, cough cough cough!
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Posted By Tabs
Nice one.
What an encouraging groundswell of non-interference.
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Posted By DavidW
Many years ago I took part in Mad Sunday (it is very aptly named!)as said above there are controls in place and the 30 limit is very strictly enforced as I remember it by very large policement with big bits of wood, never saw any of them used but the message was very very clear, 30 still means 30. I was riding an RD250 with a friend on his KH250 which shows how long ago it was to anyone who remembers those years. About half way round the Mountain part of the circuit we decided to give up and watch, after we were passed on the outside of a hairpin bend with a huge drop to one side. Would I now ban it that I'm in Elf n Safety, never, it provided some of the best memories I have to date and was terrific fun to be a part of and to watch. There was not a rider there that wasn't fully aware of how dangerous things could get and they had all made the decision to take part. Long live the TT and the NorthWest 200! Some 22 years later and I'm now back into riding bikes covering 15K miles a year and looking forward to the day I can take my little boy to watch the TT.
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Posted By John_Webster
I doubt if anyone would argue that the IoM TT races are in any way, shape or form safe. They are not even as safe as reasonably practicable - many things, like dangerous bridge parapets, could be much better protected than they are. But everyone involved knows the risk, including the stewards and marshalls, all of whom are there not because its a job but because they love and want to support the sport. As someone who spends his Sunday afternoons a few feet away from hurtling motocross bikes - one of them my own son's - I am keen to remove removable risks and manage the manageable. Otherwise we would be wasting our time as flag marshals and first aiders etc. My son will wear good quality protection, including neck and knee braces and back belt. We remove big stones from the track. I would like to see certain protective gear compulsory, not just the helmet, and all obvious obstacles which could be hit by an out of control biker removed or protected with bales, tyres and/or water or air bags and that can be done for the TT where it is not done already. But we cannot make motor sport safe. Each season, our own motocrossers receive their crop of fractures - that's the nature of the sport. But they love it, and can't wait to get the cast off or pins out and get back on the saddle. Ban dangerous sport? No way. We might as well stop living.
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
We are running the risk of losing the point here. Those who take part in the TT do so knowing full well that it is dangerous, therefore volenti non fit injuria comes into play for those taking part in the race. Those who act as marshalls etc must be treated as employees even though they may be doing it voluntary and siutable and sifficient risk assessments should be undertaken and suitable controls put in place. These people also need to be trained and have facilities in place to control the risks involved. It does not mean that the TT does not go ahead. It's about being reasonable. IOSH is asking for conkers bonkers reports, why on earth does the H&S profession keep on pushing the myth that if its slightly risky we don't do it, get a life.
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Posted By Tim Devlin
Well said that man!
I am not only a H&S Manager for a large maufacturing company based on the IOM but also choose to race around the TT course every August/September in the Manx Grand Prix. I know the risks as does everyone connected with the sport.
Live and let live!
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Posted By David Bannister
All this talk about risk assessments, alarp etc makes me wonder whether these concepts exist in Manx law. I don't know and don't really care.
Let those that want to be involved in the TT's do so, the rest of us should mind our own business!
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
How refreshing to read so many sensible contributions by safety people. Why certain individuals take risks, whether they be betting their weeks wages on a horse or riding a bike like a lunatic I do not know. However, it is their choice. It is also my choice not to complete COSHH assessments on tippex or washing up liquid!
TGIF
Ray
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Posted By Rachael Palmer
I first attended the TT races in 1984 and have continued to attend as often as possible, (even sat one of my diploma exams over there with the Senior race going on in the background).
As for banning Mad Sunday, never.
The road when not closed for racing is a public highway with speed limits strictly enforced by the Manx Police (if they can operate the speed gun quicker than you can spot them and operate your brakes). The Mountain section of the "course" has been made one way for the entire two weeks of TT which will enhance safety for all riders. From my experience safety on the island has increased significantly over the years and the accidents tend to be caused by those who have a total disregard for the safety of themselves or others. These people, if they don't cause an accident on the island are likely to cause one elsewhere.
All those who go to the TT as a racer or spectator know the risks they take and make an educated decision on whether or not to participate. The spectacle of Mad Sunday is an integral part of TT and should not be stopped.
CFT don't worry about the type of bike you ride, get yourself over there. It has to be experienced to be believed.
For those who've never experienced TT tune into ITV4 this week at about 9.00p.m. (may be 10.00p.m. on some evenings) to find out what it's all about.
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Posted By David Bramall
DRB
I agree up to a point that this is madness however, I believe these guys know what they want to do - certainly the real racers know the consequences if things go wrong and go ahead.
The only other thing is you have a similar name to me - in case of confusion.
DrB
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Posted By steven bentham
DRB
The TT racing itself, along with many other racing activities are not part of a work activity; therfore HASAWA, and ALARP does not apply.
The same situation exists for other hazardous sports i.e. boxing - the sole purpose is to cause physical pain to the other person. Or rock climbing, potholing, etc.
People who cycle to work must be much more at risk of being killed by other road users than us in our cars; but you are free to make your own choice.
Same with the TT - come and see for yourself.
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Posted By DRB
Not sure it was all positive:
"So which boring, interfering, gutless, soap dodging, lifeless, sandle wearing, scum raised this question in the first place?
If anyone knows him or her please give them a slap from me and tell them to live their own lives....if they truly have one"
Still as I raised the topic as a discussion point it has been good to see the positive feedback and this can only help to change the perception of the writer of the above comments.
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Posted By CFT
Ok 100% fair point but that particular comment was a stupid one anyway. I just thought it would be nice to see the positive views.
CFT
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