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Posted By stevehaigh
Quick question
Although mentioned in an asbestos register does asbestos locations need to be signed even though the type may not be known
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Posted By Chris D
Can you explain the question again, dont quite understand, if there has been a survey and a register compiled, i presume all the Asbestos containing products will have been identified??
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Posted By Chris D
Regardless of the type anyway, it would be marked with signs etc, to warn of the potential danger. If it contains Asbestos, blue, white or brown, its an ACM.
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Posted By Rob Hughes
Under the Control of Asbestos at Work regulations 2006 there is an obligation to label asbestos containing products (ACM) as well as a duty to ensure that contractors and others who may disturb the asbestos are made aware of its presence. As such you do have to label the asbestos. Note there is a specific label laid down in schedule 2 of the regulations, but this is readily supplied by most signs suppliers. The only exception to this is if the ACM is so small that a label cannot be attached.
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Slightly Misleading.
There is NO SPECIFIC legal requirement to label asbestos!
There is a legal requirement to manage what you have after it has been found by the survey, labeling may be part of that, but depends on the individual duty holders and their stance, it is one way but it is not the only way.
Labeling is a bit contentious as you are then lead down the road of 'well its not got a sticky label so cant be asbestos!' So if you go down the label route then checks have to be carried out on the labels etc.
See para 91 of the Management of Asbestos ACOP
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Posted By Rob Hughes
Yes once labeled there is an obligation to then check that the labels are still in place, but this is not a taxing part of the regular checks. From a management point of view however, if the asbestos is signed it is much easier to manage. Staff are more aware of where it is and will also be quicker to report any damage they see. It also assists contractors who may disturb the asbestos on site to identify where asbestos is present. Bear in mind that it is their responsiblity to locate asbestos.
There is an issue with hidden asbestos but this would be a comunication and management issue whether the rest of the asbestos was labeled or not. Any contractor or other who may disturb the asbestos present must be told where it is. The labeling, I think, helps to remind them.
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Posted By Adrian Watson
Rob,
The specific label laid down in schedule 2 of the regulations is for the supply of asbestos or disposal of waste! It is not for labelling and its use contravenes the safety signs and signals regulations 1996.
My experience is that labelling asbestos is not only a bad idea but also a dangerous one. I have encountered many problems caused by labelling of asbestos materials in properties. The most effective method is not to label the materials but to put up a warning sign stating 'this building contains asbestos refer to asbestos register before carrying out work!'
Regards Adrian
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Rob,
I cant agree more with Adrian.
Also slightly misleading in that you say it is the contractors who have to decide whether it is / isn't asbestos.
Reg 4 states that it is the person who has the duty to mange who must tell them where any ACM's are before any work starts - for non domestic premises.
Reg 5 says that no employer is allowed to work on a building unless he has ascertained whether or not ACM's are there.
In non domestic premises he can do this by asking for the Asbestos management Plan from the duty holder.
In private property he has the obligation to find this out as this is his employees place of work.
With CDM it is the client who is responsible for providing this info not the contractors and a type three MDHS survey should be done - prior to tender!
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Dave W
We are in danger of agreeing too much on this issue.
It is strange how many clients attempt to bury their heads in the sand and expect construction workers to do their job for them. I always make it clear to any contractor about to take over control of an area to do so only after the client has handed over the registers and surveys necessary. Once they take control the management duty falls to them whatever the client should or should not have done.
I am also painfully aware from some contractors that even major institutions are not aware that even non-notifiable work involves significant client input under CDM07. I think the HSE could have some easy big hits if they so chose. As yet it is softly softly but this is one issue where the need to inform has been clearly set out for some time now.
Bob
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Agreed!
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Posted By steve e ashton
Dave,
You wrote: "With CDM it is the client who is responsible for providing this info not the contractors and a type three MDHS survey should be done - prior to tender!"
Need to be careful here - undertaking a type 3 survey could be seen as part of a major refurb or demolition project. A client may have a perfectly adequate AMP in place - with evidence from type 2 surveys - but a major refurb (or demolition) will require a type 3. This can be seen as just one part of the major project, and will be included as one job element with the tender documents.
The information will not be available 'prior to tender'.
The client can specify a requirement (and check competences accordingly) for a Principal Contractor who can arrange / deliver the appropriate asbestos surveys and responses along with all other elements of the project.
Or he could arrange separately a full type 3 - which on big jobs can itself be a notifiable CDM project. He will then have the choice of seperately arranging removal prior to refurb by a general contractor or including removal alongside the other works.
Either way, the survey data is not available as part of the pre-tender information pack.
I know this is splitting hairs a little for most 'normal sized' projects, but I've been involved in a job with an estimated 1400tonnes of ACM to be removed - it tends to focus the mind very sharply on project management and procurement techniques!..
There are a number of options available - what works on one job may not be appropriate for another.
Steve
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Steve
You have in many senses outlined the real need for the survey to be done before the tender documents go out. With large jobs the need grows more pressing. How can a level playing field for tender be achieved without the type 3 being uindertaken as relevant? Also without the survey any design work is almost irrelevant as the designers will need to incorporate the information in the design process and choices. Just because clients have traditionally placed the obligation on the PC selected does not make the practice correct.
Indeed there is an argument that says each tenderer will need to do a type 3 if they are to be protecting their own employees and contractors - ie are behaving in a competent manner. It is perfectly resonable for the client to commission the survey via the designer but this must be prior to tender not after.
Bob
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Posted By steve e ashton
Robert:
The level playing field comes from the Client saying: "I want this building taken down - it contains a lot of asbestos and various other nasties. Please tender for all necessary works including type 3 survey, ground investigation, steeplejacking etc etc."
The pool of Principal Contractors who are technically competent to respond is very small, the tender prices are issued with various ifs buts and maybes. And the difficulty comes in identifying the best value for money option for the client.
The Principal Contractors may have Asbestos expertise in-house, or they may tender as a consortium or partnership.
In all truth there are few companies globally who could realistically undertake a type 3 survey of this scale, and most of them are also in the list of VERY few Companies Globally who could realistically tender for the whole survey / demolish job.
So the client choice is 'tender for the whole lot' OR 'tender for the survey work first, then tender for the ACM removal then tender for the steeplajacking then for the ... etc etc..' (Or any combination therefrom...
However the project is procured, at least part of project must be tendered before the survey is undertaken.
Steve
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Steve
In the very narrow situation you describe the option would potentially work provided that lump sum fixed prices were not demanded. This fixing of costs on the basis of a yet undefined problem is a vexed matter and not easy to resolve. The problem is that each contractor will make its own allowances and costs regardless of the actual risks that could be encountered.
One will always have to make provisos for missed items but these should be exceptional and not the norm as your methodology could create.
As for the very few who could tender I actually think that this is more to do with a preparedness to take a financial hit if the contract goes sour rather than specific job skills or work ability. Difficult tasks require specialist removal companies and not necessarily demolition companies who are able to undertake their own asbestos removals. After all the competence levels for specialist companies is likely to be much higher, thus satisfying regulation 4 CDM more clearly, not to mention CAR 2006.
Bob
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Steve,
I think you are misleading people here, the Client may well ask the PC to do this as part of his tender however the Client should pay as it is his responsibility see para 57 & 58 of CDM ACoP as this is quite specific a 'Client' Duty. " CLIENTS should carry out necessary surveys in advance and provide the necessary information to those who need it."
Any PC out there would have to put in a budget sum for both survey and budget guestimate for removal works, how does the client know what is involved if he does not do this. The Client could get a huge bill for removal if any ACMs are discovered which were not on the type 2 survey.
Apart from the issue that any site workers could be potentially exposed to asbestos if this is not done by the client.
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
DW
Fully in agreement. In fact all tenderers should do their own survey and charge it to the client if he has chosen not to undertake one. The client is in control, has a duty to provide information that he can reasonably obtain and should thus be prepared to pay the costs of obtaining the information. If he chooses to take the cost inefficient route of getting all tenderers to survey the job then he must pay each for their costs.
After all a responsible contractor will seek to protect his workforce and undertake surveys necessary before finalising the tender bid. If they run headlong into the work on the basis of guesstimates then there is a case to question their competency to do the work and yet again the client could also be in breach on a further count.
Bob
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