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Posted By halesowen Baggie
Can anybody recommend a good machine for in- house pat testing. We have a couple of 3 phase appliances that we would need to do aswell.
Why is it called Portable Appliance Testing testing.
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Posted By SeanThompson
I dont know, you said it! its P.A Testing
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Posted By halesowen Baggie
Oh and everybody you know and ever come across calls it PA testing dont they?
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Posted By SeanThompson
No they dont, 90% of people call it P.A.T testing.
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Posted By Gff
in my experience it's more like 96.785%
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Posted By SeanThompson
I was going to say that, but thought i would round it down!
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Posted By Gff
Fluke, Seaward Kewtech and Megger all do good reliable equipment although don't know if they will do three phase testing or if there is such a think other than using a meter
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Posted By halesowen Baggie
I think Ive seen an attachment for 3 phase equipment that has a 3 pin plug.
It would be interesting to know how many companies just have the yearly visit by a company with test machine that can only do the standard 3 pin plugs, forgetting their 3 phase equipment. Portable appliances do not just cover electrical items with a 3 pin plug on the end!
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Posted By CFT A summary is: The commonly accepted definition of a portable appliance is 'any item that connects to the electricity supply, directly or indirectly, by means of a removable plug'. PAT is generally required for all items that have a plug fitted that receives its power from the electrical supply.There is no dedicated legislation in place that demands PAT to be completed;having so said the Management regulations,electricity at work regs, workplace welfare regs, & provision and use of work equipment regulations supply all the reasons why you should PAT. Your 3 phase equipment is not connected via a conventional plug so it is not necessary to include in your PAT, new electrical equipment need not be tested as the manufacturer testing is far more thorough than localised testing, it should be include on your register however to ensure it IS included next time around. And yes, if you purchase your own tester and certificate an operative to do this the machine should also be included on the register. There is a wide choice of equipment available to undertake PAT; I would recommend you contact Seaward, they offer a wide selection of equipment that would be completely suitable for all of your portable electrical equipment. http://www.seaward.co.uk/All the best CFT
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Posted By Exdeeps
If I may join in,
the device is an appliance tester that can be taken to the appliance being tested, ie it is portable. It can be used to test fixed appliances such as water heaters and in newer buildings lights that unplug from the fixed installation such as fluorescent lights. (The fixed installation should then be inspected and tested by electricians qualified to inspect and test building electrical systems, with all the appliances disconnected.)
So, in summary, it is a (portable) appliance tester NOT a (Portable Appliance) tester.
Jim
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Posted By halesowen Baggie
Taken from HSG107 maintaining portable and transportable electrical equipment.
1 Nearly a quarter of all reportable electrical
accidents involve portable equipment. The vast
majority of these accidents result in electric
shock. This book gives advice on how to
maintain portable and transportable electrical
equipment safely and avoid such accidents. This
new edition contains updated advice, with new
sections on cables and repair/replacement.
2 The guidance covers equipment that may
be connected to the fixed mains supply, or to a
locally generated supply, and could result in an
electric shock or burn, or fire due to damage,
wear or misuse. It covers electric drills,
extension leads, portable handlamps, portable
grinders, pressure water cleaners, floor
cleaners, electric kettles and similar equipment
used in all environments. It also gives advice on
what the legal requirements for maintenance
can mean in practice.
Im not saying anybody is wrong but please could you tell me where I can find any reference to appliances not having to be covered if you can remove the plug. This would really help me out.
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Posted By Alan Hoskins
It doesn't.
The plug is removable from the supply, not from the appliance.
A
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Posted By halesowen Baggie
Thanks Alan, so the 3 phase items would need to go onto the register of testing as they do have plugs that go into the wall and can be removed.
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Posted By CFT
Halesowen
Sorry, I've obviously got my dense head on as I have read your last question several times and don't understand what you are asking; if you could clarify ?
Whilst writing, I did think that you may have been making reference to electric welding units when talking about 3 phase; if this is the case then there is to a degree a level of testing that you can perform which would be limited to earth continuity, insulation resistance test and of course a visual; these units connect to the 400 volt supply via a red 3 phase connector usually 16, 32, 64 amp etc, not to be confused with the blue ones which are single phase.
I expect there is a tester that will switch between 240 volts and 400 (European classification)but as of yet I not come across one.
CFT
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Posted By halesowen Baggie
CTF,
Ive got my dense head on, I hate anything to do with the subject of electricity.
I am updating my register of electrical appliances with regard to routines for formal inspections and periodic inspections and tests.
We have a number of battery charges that are 400v 3 phase, these obviously plug into the electical supply on the wall.
Basically I need to know if they need to go on the register for the periodic test (they are visually checked and signed off weekly).
If they do need testing I need to get a tester that is capable of doing the job. The current one my competent person uses at the moment only can do the standard plugs!
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Posted By CFT
Ahh so; now I understand the reason for the 3 phase question; I can only say that the testing I have detailed above can be done by a conventional tester (or a good multi meter)I am not sufficiently experienced in testing of 3 phase equipment over and above my earlier detailing. Someone will no doubt be an expert on 3 phase testing and will almost certainly be able to guide you further.
Sorry I cant help more
CFT
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Posted By halesowen Baggie
CTF
Due to the fact battery charges do have a removeable plug that is plugged into the electrical supply and the guidance I have (HSG 107) does not mention anything about conventional plugs etc, I am taking it as the charges come under the recommendations for the guidance, that is why I asked the question about testing on 3 phase equipment.
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Posted By CFT
I see no reason why you can't test the chargers (although not PAT strictly speaking) and a unit which is designed for that purpose will allow you to undertake the testing. Check on the Seaward site as there is a reference to 3 phase testing, I have not had time to read it; you'll need to log on or register.
I recall a client from many years ago who had a company service all trucks both CB and pallet; this particular company included testing of said chargers, I am afraid aside from ensuring PAT was completed I did not actually see what level of testing went on, which begs the question, does your contractor for servicing the FLT's offer a charger electrical test? Just a thought then you can continue with all other equipment on your register.
All the best
CFT
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Why PAT Testing? Otherwise we confuse with Public Address (PA) systems.
What is a portable appliance? It's in the HSE guidance folks. Any portable or transportable appliance connected to the mains aupply via a plug and socket arrangement or via a flexible cable to a terminal/junction box. So water heaters, instantaneous geysers, and cookers etc. are included in the definition (as are 3-phase items which meet the above criteria).
PAT Testers can test 3-phase equipment provided you buy one with the necessary cable adaptor set. Fault finding of 3phase motorised appliances usually requires to be done by a qualified electrician or technician as it may well be necessary to test one phase at a time to isolate faults - this means (safely!) temporarily disconnecting other phases within the appliance.
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Posted By Alan Hoskins
Aren't water heaters, geysers, etc. usually screwed to the wall, Ron?
Hardly portable or transportable?
A
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Nevertheless Alan, they come within the HSE's definition in HSG107.
The risks associated with direct contact and potential damage to the short piece of flexible cable justify a frequency of formal visual exam. & combined inspection and test more stringent that would be applied to the fixed wiring installation.
It's all about relative risk at the end of the day?
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Posted By holmezy
If the water heaters, wall heaters, geysers etc etc are hard wired then they don't need PATesting. Don't get fooled by people telling you to PATest everything with a plug on, every year. If its not likely to move, ie unplugged and re plugged on a regular basis it can be done less frequently. (Normal pre use checks apply) ie You don't have to PATest anything but its an easy way of ensuring electrical safety and compliance.
Holmezy
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Spot on Holmezy - no law says PATesting prescriptive.
You refer to "hard wired" equipment. I'm referring to soft wired (e.g. geyser connected to an eccesible fused spur outlet by a shortish length of flexible cord).The instantaneous electric shower in my bathroom at home - now THAT I'd refer to as "hard wired".
Consider the recent post here about hair dryers in a Leisure Centre secured via terminal outlets - surely portable appliances within the HSE definition? Same logic applies, whether hand operated or hand-held, i.e. relative risk!
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Posted By Alan Hoskins
So how do you PAT test a heater wired into a spur? The cables have to be disconnected and then there is no plug to plug into the tester... Surely not.
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Posted By Ron Hunter
PAT (Testers) are available with multi-blocks to allow testing of a variety of plug designs as well as having a terminal set for direct connection of wire ends, however; my real argument here is that such items should be subject to rigorous formal visual examination -and at a frequency commensurate with the risk!
c.f. the Leisure Centre hairdryers already mentioned.
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Halesowen Baggie - sorry your thread has been hijacked!
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Posted By Gff
Agree with Ron
I mean you see people at the swimming bath waving about boilers all the time to dry their hair it's a disgrace how they get abused
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Posted By Alan Hoskins
Whilst I agree with Ron that such equipment should be part of a test programme I don't see it as part of a PAT test programme.
Sorry HB to divert the discussion somewhat, so to come back to the three phase equipment: there doesn't appear to be a great demand for PAT equipment for this purpose or all the PAT manufactures would have something in their catalogues.
It has been suggested earlier that this equipment could be tested using a metre. The difference would be that test metres use milliamps to test continuity, whereas PAT units apply 25 amps in general. The high current will cause an almost severed earth wire to burn out and so fail the test.
The insulation test would be the same in both cases, usually testing at 500 volts.
To use a PAT unit to do the test (if nothing proprietory is available) you could ask a qualified and competent electrical person to make a suitable adaptor - three phase socket to 13 amp plug - with live connected to all three phases at the socket and earth connected to earth. There will be no neutral.
Disclamer: I am not that qualified/competent electrical person, so take further advice before doing what I suggest!
Hope it's helpful though...
Al
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Posted By John Lewis
Following on from Holmezy's thread, in my last place we achieved OHSAS18001 and the PAT regime did not do every item at a specific time lapse. Initially everything was as per IEE recommendation, but as a body of evidence was developed we extended examination periods, always backing up the decision with copies of data and e.mails from my Maintenance Dept to the users Department.
On the one occasion, in four years, that we had a failure we immediately went back to square one for that type of appliance (SDS drills if I recall). The number of items exceeded 2000 when PC's and monitors were included.
John
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Posted By Richard C Price
Hi all
I know that this is somewhat off the original question, but I feel I must clear up the idea that you need to test fixed appliances. The IEE regs state that for an appliance to be portable, it must be fitted with a removable plug and socket. A water heater that is wired directly into a connection plate or a fused spur is not portable. It would need to be tested under the Periodic Test and Inspection, which is normally a five year test. Other buildings such as those open to the public, need to be tested annually. The hand driers that were mentioned earlier could be inspected visually, on a monthly basis,as part of your PPM. This will depend on the amount of use and the type of people who use (or abuse!) them.
You can do more harm than good if you regularly connect and disconnect appliances.
I firmly beleive that the best type of PAT is carried out visually before you plug the appliance in!
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Richard:
Your choice as to whether you go with the HSE or IEE definition of "portable". Only one of those organisations can take you to court though!
;-)
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Posted By Peter Leese
Richard is right, in most cases hard wired appliances should be covered during the fixed electrical installation periodic testing regime.
It would be very difficult to include fixed electrical equipments such as electric and gas boilers in a PAT regime and outside the remit of most PAT testers.
Quote from earlier contribution: Your 3 phase equipment is not connected via a conventional plug so it is not necessary to include in your PAT
It is not right to say that because an equipment doesn't come with a 13A domestic type plug that it doesn't need to be tested - for example that knocks PAT testing of 110V equipment right on the head!!!!!
The answer is that if it is electrical portable equipment that plugs in, then normally it would need to be tested.
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Posted By Lulu
Its a bit like PIN number (Personal Identifiction Number number)
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Posted By Trevor Bates
Seaward machines are excellent. In previous jobs I have used Megger but at a href="http://www.londonpattesting.co.uk">london pat testing/a> they use Seaward Europa Plus - they're very easy to use and durable too.
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Posted By Trevor Bates
That's a href="www.londonpattesting.co.uk">pat testing/a>
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Posted By mark gough2
Most of the major manufacturers have kit that can test three phase equipment.
The only legal duty is to maintain equipment to prevent danger. For instance guidance for IT equipment in offices suggests every four years (how many computers last that long!.) A risk assessment taking into account manufacturers recommendations etc should form the basis of any test regime as over testing can be as hazardous as not testing at all.
Ask the manufacturer what testing and frequency they suggest (they should provide this information but may be initially surprised by the request!)
The IET does two decent publications
"code of practise for in service inspection and testing of electrical equipment" for PAT type testing.
and "Electrical Maintenance" for other equipment. After taking a more pragmatic risk based approach we went from yearly tests of all equipment to four yearly testing for the majority of equipment down to 3 monthly for extension cables that may be used out of doors.
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Posted By Peter Leese
Yes Mark you're right, I should have put /inspected next to my last word
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Posted By LJ Halesowen baggie, In answer to your questions: try these sites for types of equipment: http://www.seaward.co.uk/http://www.pat-services.co.uk and for an explanation about Portable and transportable electrical equipment testing (PATEET) try http://www.pat-testing.info/PAT-Testers.htm.Other factors to take into consideration when considering whether equipment needs formal visual inspection or combined inspection and testing is; Type of equipment e.g double insulated, hand-held, low voltage/high voltage Environment: Office use, outdoors, dusty, explosive etc Always refer to manufacturers/suppliers guidelines when deciding on testing/inspecting more complex equipment e.g. 3 phase welders etc.
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