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Posted By Heathrow
Could anyone help please ?
I need to know what qualifications / competency an electrician needs to work on commercial premises. I've always insisted in membership of NICEIC or the ECA, trained to 16th edition. The company I have just joined are using sparks who are only certified to part P which is domestic only. But they are cheap ! I'm not satisfied with the level of work but its a case where unless I can illustrate 100% that we need a more qualified company - nothing will change ! Help please ?
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Posted By Garry Homer You are at risk using only part p registered sparks as they clearly do not have the full competency required. Part p people are only registered for fitting kitchens or bathrooms and that type of work and it is a 'Limited Scope' registration they have. Most will be completely out of their depth when it comes to any 3 phase gear. If they were good enough they would be fully registered as the cost differential of registering is minimal. Members of NAPIT, the National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers have fully qualified electricians who have been individually assessed and registered by them, unlike some others who assess and register the electrical company but not each employee. Put your postcode into the NAPIT website and a list of local electricians will be presented to you. www.napit.org.ukGarry
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Posted By Heathrow
Many thanks, I agree with everything you say, but am having major problems convincing my employer of the scope of the problem is there anywhere I may get a definitive answer ? I contacted the ECA and NICEIC and they both agreed the firm is not competent to the standards required - the answer I get from the boss is "Well they would say that, they've a vested interest in us using thier memberS!" Really need to find something concrete !
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Posted By Geoff Ferneyhough
My understanding is that Part P only applies to Domestic Instalations as outlined below.
In May 2003 the Government announced that it would introduce a new Part to the Building Regulations, Part P, which would bring domestic electrical installation work in England and Wales under the legal framework of the Building Regulations. It will, for the first time, place a legal requirement for safety upon electrical installation work in dwellings.
I would always insist on an Electrician working in our premises being registered with NICEIC, NAPIT or the ECA.
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Posted By Heathrow
Is there no commercial equivelant ? The guy they're using has been here years. I'm only just 6 weeks in the front door ! Its becoming a real thorn in my side as the FM is totally intransigent on the subject !
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Posted By Exdeeps
Hi,
If the guy has been there for years, as you say, what qualifications did he have prior to Part P being introduced? He must have proven his competence at some time. Can he prove that he once served time as an electrical apprentice or been trained some other way? It does not prove current compliance etc. but it may be that asking the question opens up a new path to achieving a common point of view with your FM.
Jim
PS that's "current" as in now, not current electrons in a conductor!
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Posted By Garry Homer
If this guy is self certifying his own work, ie, no one else is following him around and carrying out the tests to prove his work is safe then he should hold the City & Guilds qualifications for the 16 ed of the regs and the inspection and test qualifications as an absolute minimum.
C&G 2381 and 2391
If he has been bothered to attend college and do this, you have to ask yourself, why has he not registered as being fully qualified?
Competency to self certify? I presume he produces the necessary certificates.
Competency is defined in IEE Guidance Note 3 on Inspection and Testing:
"The inspector carrying out the inspection and testing of any electrical installation must, as appropriate to his or her function, have a sound knowledge and experience relevant to the nature of the installation being inspected and tested, and to the technical standards. The inspector must also be fully versed in the inspection and testing procedures and employ suitable testing equipment during the inspection and testing process"
Plenty to ask him here!
Good luck. I would keep a written record of your instruction to keep using this guy if your boss insists. Hopefully he may email you that instruction!
Garry
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Posted By Heathrow
Many thanks everyone - have no fear I'm establishing the paper trail to show I've been over ridden on this decision so far. The problem is I am very worried about the quality of his work - but only a couple of weeks into the job my voice doesn't hold too much sway !
The guy listed his registrations as :
IEE / IET (Institute of Electrical Engineers), MIIE, MI PlantE and IIE (Institute of Incorporated Engineers).
No mention of 16th edition !
Total nightmare !
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Heathrow
Not sure if you mean an external FM or your own internal FManager.
If external FM then ask for proof of competence under reg 4 CDM 07. Put him on the back foot so to speak. Remember competence is not just training certificates and courses but includes ability, experience, behaviour and attitude - make sure they can demonstrate all this.
If internal FM just cover yourself with some form of record file that demonstrates you have had the discussion and believe that the competency evidence is weak. Explain the HSE approach and their view of what constitutes construction work. At that point leave the manager to sort it out or take responsibility, albeit de facto by not changing the person out.
Bob
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Posted By CFT
If an outside operative what did the initial assessment of said contractor say and subsequent induction? Do you run this under PTW when accessing beyond the initial supply?
if internal, when was the last appraisal completed, with respect to current qualifications/experience & knowledge, and any training/courses that may be essential for him/her to continue with these duties?
You seem to be in a position to do something, so with respect, why not take the 'bull by the horns' and make yourself heard, you will face bigger dilemmas than this one, so why not start how you mean to go on? you'll get the respect in the long run.
Best wishes
CFT
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Posted By P.R
Part P qualification is not sufficient for commercial.
A part P course can be completed in 5 days. There is no way that this leads to electrical competency. This is one of my pet hates.
To self certify under part p, you don't even technically need to issue test certs!!!!
As a minimum for commercial I would ask for C&G 236 parts 1 and 2, C&G 2380 or 2381 (16th edition and C&G 2391 (inspection, testing and verificaion).
Preferably JIB appoved.
Regards
Peter
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Posted By mark gough2
The leagal position is quite clear reg 16 EAWR requires electricians to be competent by knowledge or experiance (The HSE fought hard to have the or replaced by and in the new version but were out manouvered by industry)
Membership of a approved contractors scheme is a good start but in my experiance is NO Guarantee. To register with NICEIC you select the work you want inspecting and its virtually impossible to be struck off. The company not the individual is registered.
It is quite possible, in my opinion, common for NICEIC companies to send unqualified persons onto site. Always check the individual. I agree with previous postings if he is testing then c+g 2391 should be a minimum.
If you have concerns about someones work i would ask for an "independent" person to inspect a selection of the work he has carried out. He may be a lot more competent than you think or the work so poor that the risk of fire and or injury could prompt management to review their position.
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Posted By mark gough2
PS 16th edition is a multiple choice open book test which can be passed with a couple of hours practise hardly demonstrating competence.
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Posted By Heathrow
Many thanks everyone - its been quite an eye opener !
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Posted By Garry Homer
Just because the guy is a member of the IET and others does not make him competent at electrical installation work.
I have a B.Sc. in Electrical and Electronic Engineering and a member of the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (MIEEE), spent 32 years in the electrical supply industry and done everything from sockets to commissioning 132kV substations.
But, when my sons became interested in doing up houses, I had to go through college once more to refresh my electricians apprenticeship training and get up to speed with the changes in the regulations etc to get re-qualified, then assessed by NAPIT before I could start sorting out my sons houses. Any other engineering expertise was not recognised. A superior electrical engineering background does not count for anything when it comes to hands on electrical installation work.
Only a qualified and trained electrician will do.
Garry
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