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Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH
Dear all.
Just a quick question.
Does an auditor, or a reviewer of site documentation, need to be competent in order to audit a lifting plan?
My answer is YES, as that person must of attended an appointed persons course in order that they a good understanding of what they are auditing, or looking for in a lifting plan. Although, there is NO legal requirement for the auditor to be competent.
Does anybody disagree?
Thanks for your time.
Regards
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Posted By JayJay
Hi Jonathon !
I totally agree with you ! The person carrying out the audit should have experience and knowledge combined with training to be able to assess a planned lift. They would have more in depth knowledge of what should be provided, who provides it, whose got certain responsibilities, M/S and R/A, docking plans and elevation plans etc. No disrepect meant but some people in the health and safety profession wouldn't have these experiences that lead to competency. I think in an earlier thread this was touched on regarding individuals competencies in different roles i.e a NEBOSH Cert holder being able to advise on a construction site. A bit similiar eh ?
Regards JJ
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Posted By Steve Butler
Hi Jonathan
Not a response to your question but are you the same Jonathan Sandler that went to the Scarman Centre, Leicester on an MSc course back in 2002?
If so, how the devil are you?
If not my apologies!!
Steve Butler
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
The auditors job is to ensure that the necessary systems are followed in the creation of the lifting plan including the mechanisms for the selection of competent persons to do the work.
A competent auditor is skilled at spotting the weaknesses of the systems and their implementation. The auditor therefore does not have to be able to do the job of creating and managing a lifting plan for example. It is always the responsibility of the employer to have proper systems in place and these are adequate to perform the function.
My answer is thus a clear NO - s/he needs to be competent in their role with a substantive knowledge of the applicable legal requirements for the task.
Bob
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Posted By JasonGould
Hi Jonathan
I am with Robert on this and also say no.
Does a quality auditor need to have worked in every industry and department to determine if quality is being well managed.
Same with safety auditing.
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Thank God for the more enlightened persons. If to be an auditor you need to be fully competent in every thing you audit, who needs workers. Of course you don't need to be competent in everything, just competent to identify where those who claim to be competent fall short of the required mark. The auditor is concerned with how well the person understands what is required of him and what knowledge he has of the processes involved. If he believes there is a lack of knowledge he can raise it as a concern
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Posted By alex mccreadie
It is always easy to follow Bob on a post as his command of the English language is better than mine. I work for a Tower Crane company as the Group Health and Safety Manager. I have never done an AP course I have worked together with some of the biggest Crane Hire companies in the UK on ensuring Method Statements and Lift Plans are in a correct workable format Am I competent to go on construction sites to check whether their Method Statements and Lift Plans are good enough to Operate our cranes? I say yes because of my time and practical experience in the Lifting Industry. Remember up until a couple of years ago Appointed Person courses were being carried out in Hotel Conference rooms for up to 16 candidates without a Crane in sight. I ask are these people that passed that course competent?
Ta Alex
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Posted By John Middleton
I am on the no side. No single auditor would be able to encompass the knowledge required to be expert on every document on site. e.g. lifting plans, scaffold and excavation inspection, structural calculations, etc. They must be able to recognise where documentation is missing and be able to check the competence of those providing the documentation.
Johnathon and Steven; at the risk of hijacking the thread, I was the John Middleton at Scarman Centre. Took a year out before the dissertation and didn't graduate until last year.
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Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH
Once again this forum provides good guidance from both sides.
RKL you view is well made about the auditor, I wish there where more like you!!
I think it comes down to both the employer and the individual to assess the options open to them, but please note I did not refer to whether the lift is an contracted or hired lift, this does not fully dissolve the PC or their responsibility, but it does goes a long way towards it.
My personal view is that in order for the person to review, in this case, that person must have a good understanding of the lifting plan, so therefore attending the course would be of benefit to both the employer and the individual.
Regards
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Jonathan
I did note that you also used the term "review" and I carefully avoided comment on this as it could well be a situation where a degree of detailed knowledge/experience/training would be required. But this is not the job of an auditor to review a plan for suitability.
Bob
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