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#1 Posted : 25 July 2007 15:23:00(UTC)
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Posted By montrey
I have been asked to find out about hearing tests for employees.

I understand that there are a few options

1. mobile units (with a sound proof booth on board) that turn up at your Company
2. nurses who come on site and do the tests in "a quiet room" on your premises
3. send the employees off to the local Doctor's surgery for testing

I am not keen on option 3 for a variety of reasons so will rule it out immediately

My questions are :-

Which do you personally recommend and why?
Which do YOU use (mobile unit or "quiet room")?
What is the implication of not using a sound proof booth and doing the tests in a "quiet room"?

Any recommendations of Companies that you have used in the past would be gratefully received (prices would be great as well!!)

I look forward to any help that you can give me

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#2 Posted : 25 July 2007 15:55:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kevin Allison
There is a fourth option. You could send someone on an audiometry course and purchase the equipment yourself.

I did just that. The course was at Seabrook Audiology in Gloucester (probably not a good idea to travel there just yet) it lasted 2 days and cost around £500. I received a recognised BSA qualification for the assessment of hearing. The equipment costs around £700 and if you want a laptop with it an extra £400. Once this is done all you need is a quite room to carry out your tests. We had a consultancy company do our first assessments at the cost of £3500 for the amount of employees we have and this needs to be done for the initial assessment, then the following year and then every 3 years in order to establish whether any damage is being done. As you can see it would be quite expensive to get someone in to carry these tests out over a long period of time so it may be cheaper to do it this way. Hope this helps.
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#3 Posted : 25 July 2007 16:35:00(UTC)
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Posted By montrey
Thanks for the reply but that doesn't answer the question.

What is the implication of not using a sound proof booth and doing the test in a quiet room? I have been told that there is legislation in place that states that it is necessary to use a sound proof booth.

Also, who is overseeing the person doing the hearing tests at your Company? Did the person who went on the course have a medical background? I understand that the hearing tests have to be overseen by either an Occ. health doctor or an audiologist.

I am even more confused now
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#4 Posted : 25 July 2007 16:41:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter
If you opt for 2, the quiet room must meet the BS (the number of which escapes me at the moment).

Paul
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#5 Posted : 25 July 2007 16:57:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Adams CMIOSH
References to EN 26189 in appendix 5 of the guidance to the noise at work 2005 regulations (L108).

"EN 26189 gives criteria which should be met in test rooms to prevent test tones being masked by ambient sound levels and to allow measurement of hearing thresholds down to 0 dB. The quietest listening conditions are required at test frequencies of 1 kHz and below. It is usually necessary to use an audiometric
soundproof booth to achieve acceptable listening conditions. A small number of
people find these claustrophobic and need to be tested outside the booth.
Although noise-excluding headsets have been recommended as an alternative
method to reducing the effects of ambient noise, variations in fit mean that it is
not possible to be certain of the attenuation achieved. This should be considered
when comparing results using this strategy."

Interesting, not read that far through it before.

How many workplaces are going to be to that standard?
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#6 Posted : 25 July 2007 17:01:00(UTC)
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Posted By montrey
That's my point..... not a lot !

This can of worms seems to be getting bigger, thanks for you help
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#7 Posted : 26 July 2007 11:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kevin Allison
As stated previously very few companies will be able to provide the noise booths required to ensure ambient noise is reduced. The course I mentioned in my previous response is a recommended course for Industrial Audiometricians, as required by the Control of Noise at Work Regulations 2005, and the recommendations from the course is that the ambient noise, in general, should not exceed 35dB(A). If you can provide a quite room that is below this level then you are meeting the requirements. I have recently visited a Occ Health practice to have a hearing test and to be quite honest, it was a farce, non of the equipment worked properly, the leads were all twisted and damaged and I nearly lost my hearing due to a large bolt of feedback noise. I honestly think you would be better carrying out the tests internally, this way you can ensure that the testing is carried out as per the performance requirements.
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#8 Posted : 26 July 2007 11:45:00(UTC)
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Posted By John Lawlor
Kevin can you post some info on the course as in where and who to contact
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#9 Posted : 26 July 2007 12:21:00(UTC)
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Posted By montrey
I have just taken advice on this and have been reliably told that "it is necessary to do the tests in a sound proof booth" and not in a quiet room. A previous contributor quoted the correct information from the Control Of Noise at Works Regs.

Also, I was told that the hearing tests MUST be overseen by an Occupational Health Physician or Audiologist.

Where will this leave you if you have a claim against you if the tests are not being overseen by an Occ. Health Physician and carried out in a "quiet room" ?

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#10 Posted : 26 July 2007 13:03:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ian D.
Hi Montrey

Check with whoever is giving you advise. I have used both systems, the sound booth and now where I am currently employed we use a Occupation health provider who uses a quite room and the noise reducing head sets. All fully complaint and have stood the test of NIHL claims.


Regards

Ian
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#11 Posted : 26 July 2007 13:13:00(UTC)
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Posted By montrey
The person I checked with is an HSE Inspector. I also spoke someone from EMAS (Employment Medical Advisory Service) which is part of the HSE

This is why I am confused.
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#12 Posted : 26 July 2007 13:30:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kevin Allison
If you are so confused I suggest you speak to Robert Rendell. He is an Audiological Scientist and the tutor for the BSA Certificate in Industrial Audiometry with Seabrook Audiology Ltd. If you would like to e-mail me I can give you his phone number. I'm sure he would be able to give you accurate advice on this matter. As far as I am concerned anyone attending this course is an approved Industrial Audiometrist according to the British Society for Audiology who accredited this course. If you choose not to take my advice then that is up to you I just believe that there are a lot of people out there that know a little bit about everything but not a lot about somethings.
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#13 Posted : 26 July 2007 13:40:00(UTC)
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Posted By montrey
Kevin I am grateful for your advice - I have copied the advice that I have been sent by the HSE

Appendix 5 - of the Regulations mentions the Test Environment and advice is given re the use of sound proof booths ie that it is necessary to have one.


Part 6 - gives advice on Health survillance and para 316 gives advice on the suitability a person appointed IN CHARGE of the testing programme. Advice is given on the type of person suitable to do this. It mentions that this can be an audiological scientist or trained audiomectrician with access to a qualified occupational health professional.


The HSE leaflet Noise at work INDG 362 (rev) also states that The hearing checks need to be carried out by someone who has the appropriate
training. BUT the whole health surveillance programme needs to be under the control of an occupational health professional (for example a doctor or a nurse with appropriate training and experience).

So it seems that a sound proof booth is necessary and that it has to be overseen by an Occ Health Physician - at least that is what the HSE are telling me

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#14 Posted : 26 July 2007 14:45:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kevin Allison
Thank you for this information. I have just looked up the appendix references in the Controlling Noise at Work Regulations and it clearly states "There should be a designated person placed in charge of the health surveillance programme. This person should be fully conversant with the technical & ethical aspects of the conduct of occupational audiology". It goes on to say "A suitable person might be an occupational physician or nurse with specialist training in audiometry, or an audiologist". Pragraph 7 states "The person performing the tests may or may not be the same person who is in overall charge of the health surveillance programme". I must make it clear at this point if an employee returns a poor result through the audiometry test they are refered to their doctor to get a full diagnosis. In Paragraph 14 it mentions the test environment and states "It is usually necessary to use an audiometric soundproof booth to achieve acceptable listening conditions", but as I stated previously if you can ensure your quite room is below 35dB(A) then I would say this is not necessary. It all comes down to how people interpret information presented to then and I think this HSE inspector has not given you the correct information!! I'll end this here and leave you to make your own mind up, sorry to have confused you.
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#15 Posted : 26 July 2007 16:02:00(UTC)
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Posted By montrey
Kevin thanks once again

I find it very difficult to understand why a Doctor from EMAS and a Senior Inspector whose expertise is noise both give me the same incorrect advice.

However, given that 35dB is classed as a quiet room - where do you find one in your Company and how do you make sure that it remains under 35db - telephones, conversation, people walking around, traffic noise, air conditioning, fax machines etc etc.

I have just found this guide on the net

Extremely loud:
110 dB = rock music, model airplane
106 dB = timpani and bass drum rolls
100 dB = snowmobile, chain saw, pneumatic drill
90 dB = lawnmower, shop tools, truck traffic, subway

Very loud:
80 dB = alarm clock, busy street
70 dB = busy traffic, vacuum cleaner
60 dB = conversation, dishwasher

Moderate:
50 dB = moderate rainfall
40 dB = quiet room

Faint:
30 dB = whisper, quiet library

A quiet room (as far as they are concerned) is 40db which is almost twice as noisy as 35db. 30db is a whisper or a library !!! Are you telling me that your room could be classed as a library (or a whispered voice)whilst the hearing tests are being carried out?

Do other people have rooms that are this quiet or is it just my Company where the noise levels will definately exceed 35dB on a regular basis?

I think that I am going to get a Company in who can carry out the testing in a sound proof booth - unless I can be convinced otherwise

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#16 Posted : 31 July 2007 14:26:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert Rendell
In my experience finding a room reaching the required 35dBA is not usually a problem, though I have not undertaken tests in 'heavy' industrial settings. It has been necessary to disconnect phones, air-conditioning, photocopiers etc, and to instruct those in adjoining offices to keep quiet. I check the noise throughout with a small sound-level meter.
The problem of ambient noise is particularly relevant when testing young workers, whose hearing is very good and who will detect the slightest interuption above the 35 dBA limit. This can lead to inaccurate results, so be alert to noise.
Women, of course, have even better ears than men (sorry lads)
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#17 Posted : 31 July 2007 16:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By montrey
So what you are saying is – that it is not advisable to have hearing tests done in a quiet room if we work in “heavy” industry AND if we have young employees (or anyone else, for that matter, who could detect an interruption above 35dB(A)) otherwise you could get inaccurate results, In addition, (if want the tests carried out in a quiet room)we must ask the employees in surrounding rooms to be quiet whilst the tests are being carried out and that we should also ask everyone to unplug the phones, stop photocopying and turn off the air conditioning! I can just imagine what my boss would say if I told him that I was going to have the phones unplugged until 80+ people were tested ! It would take days, and asking people to be quiet is equally unfeasible. Perhaps this is why “a sound proof booth is necessary” after all.

I have done some more research over the last few days and found the following information
www.ioshmanchester.co.uk...e%20at%20Work%20Regs.pps -

This was a lecture given on behalf of IOSH by Dr. David Smeatham who is a Noise and Vibration Specialist Inspector. On his presentation slides (slide 19) it clearly shows someone sitting (presumably) behind the glass of a sound proof booth - not in an open office. Another slide has the following statement “the health surveillance needs to be under the control of an occupational health professional” So the people doing the tests must be overseen by a doctor or similar. I reiterate that this has been taken from an IOSH presentation by a HSE Inspector who specialises in Noise and Vibration !!

This has been a very interesting “thread” and I have had a number of private emails recommending various Companies who provide the tests. Some have mobile vehicles with a sound proof booth others do the tests in a quiet room. Do others have views on this matter as it seems that we might be providing our employees with hearing tests that are inaccurate? Where would it leave us legally if we did the tests in room that exceeded 35dB (phones, photocopying, people talking etc)and without being overseen by a medical professional?
So what you are saying is – that it is not advisable to have hearing tests done in a quiet room if we work in “heavy” industry AND if we have young employees (or anyone else, for that matter, who could detect an interruption above 35dB(A)) otherwise you could get inaccurate results, In addition, (if want the tests carried out in a quiet room)we must ask the employees in surrounding rooms to be quiet whilst the tests are being carried out and that we should also ask everyone to unplug the phones, stop photocopying and turn off the air conditioning! I can just imagine what my boss would say if I told him that I was going to have the phones unplugged until 80+ people were tested ! It would take days, and asking people to be quiet is equally unfeasible. Perhaps this is why “a sound proof booth is necessary” after all.

I have done some more research over the last few days and found the following information
www.ioshmanchester.co.uk...e%20at%20Work%20Regs.pps -

This was a lecture given on behalf of IOSH by Dr. David Smeatham who is a Noise and Vibration Specialist Inspector. On his presentation slides (slide 19) it clearly shows someone sitting (presumably) behind the glass of a sound proof booth - not in an open office. Another slide has the following statement “the health surveillance needs to be under the control of an occupational health professional” So the people doing the tests must be overseen by a doctor or similar. I reiterate that this has been taken from an IOSH presentation by a HSE Inspector who specialises in Noise and Vibration !!

This has been a very interesting “thread” and I have had a number of private emails recommending various Companies who provide the tests. Some have mobile vehicles with a sound proof booth others do the tests in a quiet room. Do others have views on this matter as it seems that we might be providing our employees with hearing tests that are inaccurate? Where would it leave us legally if we did the tests in room that exceeded 35dB (phones, photocopying, people talking etc)and without being overseen by a medical professional?



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#18 Posted : 31 July 2007 17:45:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter
Montrey

With regard to your last point, you would find it very difficult to defend your results, if you ever had to go to court or your insurers got involved, if you did not follow the BS.

Paul
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#19 Posted : 31 July 2007 21:03:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert Rendell
Whilst a soundproof booth may often be the best solution to securing a suitable test environment for audiometry, it is not always necessary - depending on the particular venue. Tests undertaken outside a soundproof booth would be perfectly valid as long as the ambient noise levels are low enough. The regulations and guidelines of the HSE and the British Society of Audiology do not actually require a soundproof booth.
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#20 Posted : 01 August 2007 09:09:00(UTC)
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Posted By pete parker
Reading this with intrest. So to sum up. To have hearing tests done in a quiet room I must

Not work in heavy industry or for that matter any industry that makes a noise
Use a room that does not have any background noise, so that rules out any room that that overlooks a road or carpark or adjoins the shop floor in any way
Ask everyone to stop talking and using the phones in the surrounding area
In fact, turn off the photocopiers, phones and air conditioning
Stop people from walking passed the room, just in case they make a noise
In otherwords, find a room that is as quiet as a library

Its not going to happen in reality

A bit of advice. Stand in the room you are going to use or have used for at least half an hour (not a couple of seconds) and listen. Then ask yourself "is this REALLY quiet". I did and it was more noisy than I thought

If you are having hearing tests done its because the people are at risk of being made deaf. You must obviously be in an industry that makes noise. I use to have the lads tested in a "quiet room" but it was a waste of time and money. The employees complained that they could hear to much background noise. Now I get a company to come in their van and it has a sound proof booth. My advice, forget the quiet room
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#21 Posted : 03 August 2007 12:57:00(UTC)
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Posted By Miriam Stone
I have been asking myself all the same questions as this! It seems your 'option 1' is the best bet - to get someone in. It covers all the bases and, assuming you get an accredited company, you can be pretty sure they are compliant. The NHCA (National Hearing Conservation Association) (American, I know)produce a leaflet which you can download called 'Mobile Hearing Testing Stations and Selecting a Provider'.

Can you post any of the providers which have been sent to you? I could do with the same information as I need to get this ball rolling too.
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#22 Posted : 06 August 2007 17:36:00(UTC)
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Posted By montrey
Hi Miriam

Thanks for your reply. I have had a number of private emails from others who have used Companies to do the tests. Some have told me not to use certain Companies (no booth and a waste of time and money)and others have recommended a couple of excellent companies (they use a mobile vehicle and a sound proof booth) Don't know whether I should post the names so please contact me directly via my email and I would be glad to provide you with that information

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#23 Posted : 15 August 2007 17:52:00(UTC)
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Posted By pete parker
Just been speaking to a colleague in the same industry as me and thought of you Montrey. He had hearing tests done by a Company who said it was okay to use a quiet room. The nurse brought a tin box and asked the person to stick their head in the tin box to do the test. Needless to say the whole exercise was a complete waste of time and money. Needless to say the company will not be asked back next year.

I have passed the name of the Company we now use onto him - they come in a mobile vehicle and use a sound proof booth. Much more sensible as far as I am concerned.

A question though - whose responsibility is it to ensure that the tests are done correctly?

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#24 Posted : 17 August 2007 17:23:00(UTC)
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Posted By Miriam Stone
Surely some form of accreditation would not be difficult - something that says 'we know what we are doing and the HSE or IOSH or someone, is prepared to give us this stamp of approval to say so'?

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#25 Posted : 20 August 2007 11:45:00(UTC)
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Posted By pete parker
Good point Miriam

Is there anyone from the HSE or IOSH who would like to comment?

As far as I am concerned hearing tests in a "quiet office" are a non starter
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#26 Posted : 20 August 2007 12:50:00(UTC)
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Posted By RBW100
We have tests conducted in a mobile unit with a booth. Many who have had the tests noted (myself included) that they were not that sound proof and you could hear FLT's driving past etc.

This was raised with the provider who said that readings were taken in the booth before and after the tests and were ok, but the van was sited else where for subsequent tests.

Rob
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#27 Posted : 20 August 2007 13:29:00(UTC)
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Posted By pete parker
Another good point.

Just imagine what the noise levels would have been like in a "quiet room".

Luckily, the company made a positive move by siting the unit away from the FLT noise.
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#28 Posted : 21 August 2007 11:28:00(UTC)
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Posted By David Black
I am dual qualified as an occupational health specialist practitioner and also a member of IOSH, my experience is broad and fairly lengthy.

The answer to the questions are that all methods would be deemed appropriate providing that an accurate assessment is undertaken by an appropriately qualified and competent person - obviously there are certain advantages to having an audiometric booth and up to date equipment, however, proper attenuation of background noise and allowing for subject temporary threshold shift due to exposure is also valid.

Please contact me on 07971660480 if you would like to discuss these issues in greater detail. I would be able to help you save some unnecessary heartache!

Dave Black
BA (Hons), BSc (Hons), RGN, DOHN, Registered Osteopath
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#29 Posted : 21 August 2007 12:02:00(UTC)
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Posted By Miriam Stone
It is good to hear that such professionals exist. Maybe you could tell us why there is so much confusion and why the 'professionals' haven't come up with a set of standards which we can follow, or an accreditation system so we don't end up with our heads in a tin box telling some person whether we can hear the beep (which could be a passing fork lift)...?

I know you are only one person but you did state your credentials and you have to take the consequences!!
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#30 Posted : 21 August 2007 13:59:00(UTC)
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Posted By Joan Blease
I have been watching this thread for a number of weeks now and I thought that it was about time that I commented. I have been an audiologist since 1972 and now run an occupational health company which provides hearing tests etc to industry.

As a Company (since 1990) we have always carried out hearing tests in a mobile vehicle with a sound proof booth because I believe, it is the only way that the test results can be accurately repeated on an annual basis. Also we tend to work in industries that do not have the luxury of having a boardroom or equivalent "quiet room". Therefore hearing tests carried out without a sound proof booth in such environments would, as far as I am concerned, be unreliable.

I personally believe that the legislation points to the use of a sound proof booth, although those who don’t use a booth read the legislation in different way. I also believe that the person carrying out the hearing tests has to be overseen by an Occupational Health Physician/Audiologist, although others feel that it is okay to send a person (non medical) on a 2 or 3 day course and let them loose on their employees without medical supervision.

I will back the above statements with extracts from the following sources:

Control of Noise at Work Regulations 2005
EN26189 Pure tone air conduction threshold audiometry for hearing conservation purposes

Test environment (Control of Noise at Work Regulations 2005)

“EN26189 gives criteria which should be met in test rooms to prevent test tones being masked by ambient sound levels and to allow measurement of hearing thresholds down to 0dB. The quietest listening conditions are required at test frequencies of 1KHz and below. IT IS USUALLY NECESSARY TO USE AN AUDIMETRIC SOUND PROOF BOOTH TO ACHIEVE ACCEPTABLE LISTENING CONDITIONS.” For the employee to hear 0dB at 1KHz the noise level at that frequency should not exceed 28dB (Taken from Table 3 EN26189).

Therefore, before a hearing test takes place in a “quiet room” without a sound proof booth a noise survey must be carried out with OCTAVE BAND ANALYSIS to ensure that the noise levels meet the criteria in EN26189 otherwise the test environment is “considered inappropriate”

Responsibility for the programme (Control of Noise at Work Regulations 2005)

“There should be a designated person placed in charge of the health surveillance programme. This person should be fully conversant with the technical and ethical aspects of the conduct of occupational audiology and in particular be responsible for:
· The quality of service provided
· Ensuring that appropriate standards are maintained during testing
· Record keeping
· Referring individuals for further advice

A suitable person might be an occupational physician or nurse with specialist training in audiometry or audiologist.”

EXTRACT TAKEN FROM HSE GUIDANCE ON NOISE A
http://www.hse.gov.uk/no...hsurveillance.htm#expect

“The whole health surveillance programme needs to be under the control of an OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL (for example a doctor or a nurse with appropriate training and experience). You, as the employer, have the responsibility for making sure the health surveillance is carried out properly”

Based on the above, my professional advice is as follows

· The hearing tests NEEDS to be overseen by an Occupational Health Professional

· The hearing tests should be carried out in an environment where the ambient noise level does not exceed 28dB at 1KHz – a soundproof booth is usually necessary

· If a soundproof booth is not being used, a noise survey using octave band analysis must be carried out to ensure that the ambient noise levels does not exceed the values in Table 3 detailed in EN26189 - otherwise the room is thought to be inappropriate

· If your service provider does not use a soundproof booth make sure that they do the noise survey with octave band analysis and insist on having a copy of their report and check the various readings against EN26189. Also, ask the person to prove that they are competent to carry out the required noise survey.

· You must, as the employer, make that the health surveillance is carried out PROPERLY.


If anyone needs any further sound advice please get in touch either by email or on 01925 838350
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#31 Posted : 22 August 2007 19:52:00(UTC)
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Posted By Sarah Haskins
I have read the above postings and realise the booth v the quiet room may continue for a while.

I would just like to mention that industrial audiometry is a screening process and not diagnostic, therefore any problems found (HSE classifications) when evaluating an audiogram would need referral to a GP or ENT professional.

While not advocating bad practice in any shape or form I do feel that a screening process is better than no screening at all.
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#32 Posted : 28 August 2007 13:59:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kevin Allison
At last, someone who has common sense. I agree fully with Sarah, audiometric screening is designed to identify possible problems with a persons hearing and any discrepancies found, by carrying out screening, should be referred to a doctor or occupational health specialist. I do not believe we would comply any more with the regulations if we were to employ a Occ Health specialist to come and carry out the tests personally. For those who believe they must do everything in their power to mitigate against a claim then by all means spend your money and sit back happy in the knowledge that you've done absolutely everything you possibly can to identify whether someone in your employ has NIHL while not doing everything you can to actually prevent NIHL. Unlike some firms who seem to have massive amounts of money to throw at health surveillance schemes we actually need to balance the cost of carrying out health & safety related programmes against the benefits of carrying them out. I believe we should do more to try and prevent NIHL, by ensuring that machinery is purchased with noise levels in mind or where we can't do that ensure noisy parts of machines are enclosed, rather than spending huge amounts of money on checking whether our employees have already contracted NIHL. We are a recycling company and the noise levels are high and although we always try to ensure noise levels are reduced we will never get them below the required levels. I have worked at this company for 21 years and when I started the first thing they gave me was a set of ear defenders. I have worked in this environment for that length of time and although we've managed to reduce the levels significantly we haven't managed to get them to below the legal requirement but I have excellent hearing (for my age) this is only down to the fact that I have worn the ear defenders for the whole of this time.

The person who started this thread has clearly made up their minds that they want to have a booth and so all I can say is go ahead and get one and do all you want but I must remind you that you did ask for advice on this matter and clearly there are people out there carrying out tests without a booth and as far as I can tell (although I haven't looked everywhere) I haven't seen anyone prosecuted for carrying out audiometric tests in a quite room. Providing you have done all that is reasonably practicable and balanced the costs against the benefits I believe you are doing enough.
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#33 Posted : 28 August 2007 15:43:00(UTC)
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Posted By pete parker
oooops a distinct sound of a cage being being rattled. Seems to be that you are trying to justify sending someone on a course rather than getting the professionals in.

You also mention cost benefits... We got the professionals in - they use a sound proof booth, have an audiologist who oversees everything and they charge less than £18 per person all in. I personally don't think that is an excessive charge for peace of mind.

If you want their name.....

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#34 Posted : 04 October 2007 16:52:00(UTC)
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Posted By kate p
In a previous life before health and safety i was an Industrial Audiologist. I would totally agree with Sarah that hearing test are screening tools to refer on if a defect is identified. It is the base of further investigations.
Even as qualified to diagnose with 2 years training i still refered them to their GP to go through the correct channels and offer the best duty of care.
either way a reputable tester is required individual or company
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