Posted By Rob Jones Hi all, I'm trying to reduce the risks associated with the operation of lift trucks on our site. Trucks are used by trained drivers, in a yard/loading area (which is a mixture if tarmac, concrete and block paviors) and in a warehouse which has a smooth concrete floor. In particular I am considering requiring the compulsory use of seat belts, but our warehouse manager has concerns from the point of view that the tasks on the truck involve a lot of getting on and off of the truck and hence the use of seat belts is impractical. My reading of the hse advice ( http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc241.pdf) is that unless the floor is smooth AND the job requires repeated dismounting AND the speeds likely to be used are low then seatbelts must be worn. Does anyone have experiences of anything similar? TIA RJ

Posted By John Jones Grad IOSH Rob ! Just a quick thought ! Ask the manager what sort of speeds does he think a FLT will need to do whether it's loaded or unloaded and doing a sudden sharp turn. The HSE did trials on this subject years ago and a loaded truck turned over at just over 4mph and an unloaded truck turned over at 3.2mph !! FLT's don't go much above 5mph anyway, especially electric trucks on a nice smooth floor. Cheers JJ

Posted By John Jones Grad IOSH Peter ! so why do manufacturers fit seatbelt and training organisations train the operatives to wear seat belts at all times. Mmmm perhaps its so the truck looks pretty with it on. Then again you can always tell that to the relatives of people who have fell out of trucks and been killed, i'm sure they'd appreciate your comments. Covered cabs are to stop materials falling onto cabs and the roll bar is to protect them if they stay within the confines of the truck when it rolls. Oh yes and they've got their seatbelt on. Regards JJ

Posted By John Jones Grad IOSH Rob ! Can you ring me direct on 07825095561 and we can have a quick chat. It might be to your benefit. Regards JJ

Posted By Rachael Palmer Rob, As previous participants have stated, the seat belts are there for a purpose. To keep the person inside the protective cage if / when the FLT rolls over. Would any of your managers like to stand up in the coroners court and explain to the coroner, in front of the deceased's family why the seat belts aren't used at your business? Rachael

Posted By Rob Jones QUOTE: My reading of the hse advice ( http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc241.pdf) is that unless the floor is smooth AND the job requires repeated dismounting AND the speeds likely to be used are low then seatbelts must be worn. Rob - better to go back to your own reference above. If you meet that criteria then you meet it. My point of mentioning the 40 years was to show it is a low risk environment - the HSE talk about significant risk in this respect - the accident rate I've mentioned ie 0 in 40 years cannot be considered to present a significant risk in any language - 'oh yes it can' I hear cried. Of course I can't cater for the risk averse amongst us, but I can take a practical and pragmatic approach and attitude based on reasonable experience and variety of different work places. END QUOTE Hi Peter, I have no need to revisit the HSE advice as I fully understand it. What I was asking for was experiences of similar environments and if in these environments the HSE advice had been followed to the letter. Your example showed a similar workplace to mine and showed that the current HSE advice had not been followed, (unless the trucks were speed limited such that any sharp change in direction meant the rollover was impossible) which is the approach that our warehouse manager would like us to take. I'm not sure that I can agree that the fact that there were no (significant) accidents in a 40 year period automatically means that the risk is low. Although the historical accident rate should be something that is considered when deciding the level of risk, along with an assessment of the workplace and the operators, it in itself can not be relied upon as the only measure of the risk in the future. I would still be interested to hear from any one who has had experience of HSE enforcement on the seatbelt issue. Thanks RJ PS Cheers to John for his help over the phone.

Posted By Steve Cartwright Now Now There There All the dummies been thrown. We have had a few visits from the EHO regarding workplace transport. One of the areas they looked at was FLT's and safe systems of work, and guess what they mentioned the use of seat belts. They recommended that they should be worn at all times. Hope this helps. Steve

Posted By John Jones Grad IOSH Sorry if i come across as disparaging but it is only born out of frustration and accidents that i either heard about when i was a FLT instructor or pictures of 'mousetrap' type deaths that i've seen. At the end of the day we are all fellow professionals striving for the same thing at work and that is the safety of our colleagues. we all have opinions and wether they are right or wrong this discussion forum is to help people pool their knowledge and share with others. Hopefully then we will be able to give the right advice to those seeking information. regards JJ

Posted By Peter Leese so why do manufacturers fit seatbelt and training organisations train the operatives to wear seat belts at all times. Mmmm perhaps its so the truck looks pretty with it on. Then again you can always tell that to the relatives of people who have fell out of trucks and been killed, i'm sure they'd appreciate your comments. Professional comments?

Posted By Rob Jones Peter, I have full read your 1st post and as I said found the experience you've had useful for me. BTW I use the 'QUOTE' flags as the forum does not provide this functionality, and adding this makes in easier for other to rad the reply post. John, I had not considered the isurance route, which is odd as I've used this card before myself. A call to our insurers in the morning I think. RJ

Posted By Steve Cartwright As previously stated in earlier responses different HSE/EHO Inspectors have different views. If you have an incident where a FLT driver is seriously injured or killed and it was found that he/she was not wearing the seat belt that was fitted to the truck. The chances are you/company will be in deep doo doo. Remember the company could also turn round and say they were following the advice from their own and I use the term loosley COMPETENT H&S advisor/manager/officer. You can argue the toss all you like on this forumn whether to wear one or not, it will not make a blind bit of difference to the Judge. The argument of not having an incident in 40 years will not wash either. I can just see the Judge nodding his head and saying REALLY THE FLT DRIVER MUST HAVE BEEN REALLY UNLUCKY THEN TO FALL OUT OF THE CAB AND GET CRUSHED. For those who have been advised by a EHO/HSE Inspector that they do not have to wear a seatbelt at all times, get it in writing from them specifying where and when you don't have to wear one. At the end of the day all the FLT Driver has to do is pull the belt round his waist and clip the buckle in. It does not cost any money and takes about 2 seconds to do. I would say it was reasonably practicable to wear one wouldnt you.

Posted By Rob Jones Chris, I would fully agree with you. The legal position is clear, what I'm struggling with is the assessment of the level risk. In pure safety terms it makes perfect sense to require seatbelts to be worn, even if the risk of overturning is small. But the counter argument would be one of "H&S manager imposing rules where they are not required!". Having never driven an FLT means I can not draw from personal experience and hence all the information I can glean is either written advice or from my observations of FLT use on my site. Moving away from pure safety to my culpability for any offence arising from a fatality and with insurance in mind I am inclined to insist that the belts are worn. Hummmm. RJ

Posted By Dave West Ok so some have never had a overturned truck but does this mean it will never happen? I am an ex flt driver and i dont go with "the smooth floor" arguments. I think any RA worth its weight would say compulsory wearing of seat belts. I have seen trucks overturn and everyone of the guys driving said the same thing and that was they tried to jump out but the seat belt stopped them. The environmental conditions where the truck is being used dont even come into it when human error is a factor ( Driver turning with a raised load)We had a well maintained truck lose a wheel once, ok it was down to a fault part that had been replaced but it still happened. I ask you this, is it such a difficult thing to wear a lap belt? I was a multi picker so i had to keep getting on and off and you get used to it so much it become second nature to do it.

Posted By SCOTT M Rob, I work in a similar environment as yourself with a large Warehouse / Transport operation. Several months ago I introduced a seat belt policy for the first time ever at the site and it was a fairly trying period, however 4 months on it is common practice and it is very rare to see an FLT operator without it. Just keep on talking to the guys and let them know the reason for it. Keep the faith and it will happen. Scott