Posted By peter gotch 1
Hi Craig

To get an effective response to your question , I think you need to provide some more detail of the job they were doing and what they are now being asked to do.

It is just possible that the proposed change is aimed at reducing the risk of violence to the employee.

Regards, Peter

Posted By Ken Taylor
Are we talking about a school crossing patrol? Certainly sounds like it may be an increased risk for the individual but a problem with these road safety issues is that the risk to crossing children is also a key factor. If the crossing patrol isn't sited where the children are determined to cross the road some real additional hazards can be introduced.

It sounds like a site meeting is needed with representatives of the school, local authority road safety officer, traffic engineers, police, etc to agree the best arrangements for all concerned.

Posted By Ken Taylor
Was the chief road safety officer involved with this, Craig?

Without seeing the situation it's difficult to give a site-specific opinion but 'at the end of the day' whether there is a breach of HASAWA comes down to decisions of enforcing authorities and courts - although I suspect it is unlikely for them to challenge the recorded decisions of road safety and traffic engineering experts unless there is evident negligence.

The traffic people should be able to tell you and the school what the traffic speeds are at this location at the relevant times and the road safety person should be able to comment upon whether the positions and sight-lines are such that there is adequate thinking, braking and stopping distance at those speeds.

If the chosen crossing place is because it's where the children will cross anyway because of the pedestrian routes, sometimes pedestrian guard-rail can be installed to force a better crossing place. However, this needs to be sited so that pedestrians cannot circumvent it and cross on the roundabout or junction or that those crossing from the other side don't have their access to the footway obstructed.

In addition to clear signage and 'School' carriageway markings, consideration could be given to a 20mph zone, installing speed humps, cushions or tables or build-outs to reduce traffic speed and crossing distance.

If the local authority highways department say they have no funds for these, the school or the education department could consider contributing to the installation costs through fund-raising events, etc - or, perhaps the school and parents would like to lobby for additional engineering measures via councillors, press, etc?

Posted By craig b hartley
thx ken, saracen

i am a member of the school board and i was asked to look into this situation on there behalf.

unfortunatly ive came up against a safety professional who in my opinion is trying to justify a decision by using reasonably practicable even though i don't think it would pass in this case.
as ive tried to explain to him the cost 's incurred would not balance out against over 150+ primary school children crossing this area upto 4 times a day

i have proposed puting in a side gate or extra barriers to take the crossing to where it is at the moment, maybe it is me thats wrong in applying the hierarchy so stringently

Posted By Ken Taylor
Is this 'chief safety officer' a road safety officer or traffic engineer?

Posted By Bob Youel

Have you been in touch with the councils internal health and safety team as it is they who advise re patrol officers - road safety officers and the like are a completely different occupation/set of people and have 'politicial' aims to address

I feel that you were not clear at the beginning of this corriespondance as again health and safety looked like it was they that were giving instruction /advice when in fact it was another group altogether

Get the person responsible for managing the patrol officers to undertake a suitable and sufficient risk assessments and sign them hence taking responsibility

Posted By Saracen11
Hi craig. I'm puzzled! The school you are acting for subscribes to the LA for Health and Safety advice (via the SLA). You are a member of the board (of Governors?) and therefore I understand your desire to protect your interests. If you want to present a solid case against the Safety Professional, you need evidence. So, get accident stats for this area of road, both the present and proposed.

If all else fails, you can demonstrate to the HSE (should an incident occur) the board has done everything SFARP, and the Council is the one that would be investigated in depth.

BTW - there should be some guidance that sets out the distances of danger zones where road crossings can be placed. Have you spoken to ROSPA?

What is the reason they are proposing the move?

Hope this helps?

Regards

Posted By Jean
Hi Craig

You may not actually have any incident statistics to submit. However, you could try to arrange for the dangers to be videoed. Keep a diary of the date, time, place and numbers of children crossing over this road. Look at where they tend to cross. A video will also show evidence of how the transport is moving in the area close to the school at the time the children are leaving. I've used video evidence to argue my case before some really tough cookies for building evacuations, and won them around.

If there was an incident then there would be a requirement to produce a risk assessment by those making the decision (thats a pre incident risk assessment. There should not be a problem with them providing you with a signed copy.

As stated previously ROSPA would be a very good contact for you. They may be able to suggest consultants who could advise the school independently. Have other parents signed a petition against this move? Have you tried your local press or are you still trying to be nice and not offend anyone? Have you costed the changes that you have proposed? Where would the funding come from for your proposal?

Please remember that just because a group of people with important titles have come to a decision, it doesn't mean that it's the right decision. Are you the only person meeting with them, or are you taking along another parent with health and safety experience? You don't know what pressures have been brought to bear on those you are meeting. With all due respect, we hear what we want to hear. Always have a second person available, and have notes made of the meeting, circulated and signed appropriately for accuracy.

Posted By Saracen11
Hi craig. I wish you all the best with this one and hope all involved are never in a position whereby they have to justify their actions/decisions in the Coroners Court.

Kind regards.