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Foam fire extinguishers and electric cookers
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Posted By AGPetrie
Looking for peoples thoughts or advice regarding suitability of foam fire extinguishers for kitchen fires.
They are being suggested as being suitable for use on fires where there are electric cookers involved. I have been informed that these are normal electric cookers (induction hobs, oven and grills) and it is most likely that a fire would involve burning food, either on the grill or hob, as opposed to an electric fire from the cooker.
My concern is the mix of electricity and foam, although not having a good grounding in fire fighting, this may be unfounded. It has been pointed out that the cooker could be isolated, but we are students (tertiary education) who may not be aware of this action.
Does anybody with more fire background be able to give some guidance on this?
Cheers
Allan
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Posted By FJ
Fire blankets are not an option?
I avoid foam in this situation in case people get used to using "foam" on electrics elsewhere
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Posted By Crim
What do you mean by fire blankets not being an option?
Foam is the ideal agent for extinguishing a fire involving burning liquids in such as a chip pan. However the use of such an extinguisher in a small kitchen could lead to the flames being forced out of the pan therefore I would recommend the use of a fire blanket, handled by a properly trained individual. Switch off if possible, if necessary at the main switch, cover the burning pan and leave in position until cooled down.
If other than burning fat is involved then a carbon dioxide extinguisher could be used, even dry powder but "what a mess" although the kitchen will suffer fire/smoke damage anyway?
As always training and instructions are essential before tackling a fire.
The modern type of deep fryer with a lid is recommended as the temperature can be controlled and the lid is usually closed for cooking and can be closed if a fire should occur.
In all fire situations you should sound the alarm, get out, call the fire brigade out.
I haven't fried chips for years as oven chips are so simple to cook with a reduced risk of fire.
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Posted By FJ
Crim- there was a question mark after fire blankets- I firmly believe in them.
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Posted By AGPetrie
Thanks for the responses. The situation described arises within student accommodation and the question was raised this morning with regards to fires on cookers. Past history has shown that most actual fires are not involving fat fires as these are generally discouraged upon the students arrival. Recent fires have been chops on the grill type.
It may be more advisable that the use of extinguishers are discouraged in the kitchen and that fire blankets are encouraged.
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Don't forget that the use of CO2 has caused situations where the fire is forced out of the pan, particularly fryers and cause devastating spread of fire. The pressure of the nozzle gas jet is simplyu too large if not correctly used.
AFFF, whatever it is or is not approved for is still electrically safe up to 33kv.
In student accomodation I would stick with blankets however.
Bob
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Posted By Jonathan Breeze
Agree with Bob,
In student accommodation, extinguisher discharge is more likely to occur during horseplay, than an actual fire.
Pulling out the fire blanket just doesn't have the same attraction.
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Posted By CFT
Whilst foam can be readily suitable for a class B fire, it should NEVER be used for a chip pan fire or electrical.
The confusion on foam is often misunderstood as a Wet Chemical Extinguisher IS fine for extinguishing a 'chip pan' style fire but not for electrical; the AFFF (aqueous film forming foam)should not be confused with the Chemical extinguisher, as it completely unsuitable for the afore mentioned fire.
Preference must be with a blanket however.
Charley
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
CFT
Agree to an extent but if trained the AFF is highly effective as long as you do not spray directly down into the pan. The same goes for chemical foam as well. I well remember a manufacturers visit which demonstrated very well the use in such situations.
The training needs is why I always go blanket in these situations.
Bob
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Posted By Hugo
Hi All,
Regardless of the occupants being student or other - maintenance staff etc having reason to visit the premises. I would suggest the minimum would be a 1m x 1m fire blanket, positioned near or on an entrance.
However I would prefer the students would be well versed in "shut the door" and "raise the alarm" - get out, stay out and get the fire service out!
If a fire blanket is supplied - as with any fire fighting equipment or media,then persons should be advised on basic use. I have been to an incident when a fire blanket and extinguisher were thrown onto the fire!
Cause it says so on the tin !!!
Foam in kitchen - reads water based to me - NO untrained person and I mean unless firefighter - should ever entertain taking on an oil fire.
I have been to few and they are nasty - dirty - and oxygen starving.
Close the door! Lose the room, not the student!
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Posted By AGPetrie
Thanks for all the advice - definitely given food for thought.
Cheers
Allan
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Posted By CFT
Bob
Completely disagree on 'trained' & 'foam'. Leave it completely alone and stick with a blanket (as we both agree on) or trained in the use of wet chemical, but never foam used by kitchen operatives; ever.
Charley
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Posted By John Caboche
Agree with CFT here, we have a similar problem to this with a client of ours - they run hostels for socially disadvantaged people - drink/drug/homeless problems. The kitchens are communal and fire is a real problem when drink and drug use are (usually) involved.
I think you really need a Class F extinguisher (wet chemical) – specifically designed for deep fat fires – they work by forming a fine aerosol and thin layer of chemical over the fire impermeable to O2. That isn't AFFF and they shouldn't be confused - but it works in a similar manner by starving the fire of O2.
I personally have trouble advocating fire blankets – having been through the offshore fire training and used the things for real – most people don’t know how to use them or approach a chip pan fire, it's bloomin' scarey doing it for real - even on the fire training ground..... But again they serve a useful purpose and they should be included in a kitchen situation coupled with basic training.
They are better than nothing.
For me the big issue is training, it's no good giving people any kind of kit if they're not trained, and the basic human response is panic in a crisis situation - be that fire, flood, earthquake, acopolypse or whatever.
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Posted By garyh
I would go with providing a fire blanket but make it plain that YOU DONT WANT students fighting fires. You want them to raise the alarm and evacuate!
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Posted By Dave West
My first thought on this were "spraying a high pressure extinguisher on a pan of liquefied burning fat!" I don't think so myself and the experts in the London fire brigade recommend NEVER to use a Fire extinguisher on a chip pan fire. I take the way they generalised it as none of them. They recommend a blanket.
As has been mentioned already, training in their use is important obviously.
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Posted By CFT
The reference made earlier that 'AFFF, whatever it is or is not approved for is still electrically safe up to 33kv' can be quite misleading, one must accept that foam and water are not specifically designed to fight electrical fires and BSEN 3 Dielectric test for water based extinguishers up to 35Kv is a test when the extinguisher is in constant operation and the metallic plate is live, the current between the handle and earth, and between the nozzle and earth, shall be not more than 0,5 mA at any time during the complete discharge of the portable fire extinguisher,this is more of a protective measure when a foam extinguisher such has been discussed, may accidentally come into contact with electrical equipment(live)and will offer a minimum of protection in such a situation.
'Close proximity' is generally the rule of thumb when an appliance has passed the 35Kv Di-electric test; this test should not be confused with any belief that the foam extinguisher is ultimately suitable or safe for use with a live or potentially live piece of electrical equipment.
Even the latest generation of liquid filled extinguishers such as the Hydro-spray that may offer up to 300% fire fighting capabilities have only been tested to the 35Kv yard stick and will only offer limited protection if accidentally used in 'close proximity' to electrical equipment.
Charley
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
CFT
I was a bit obtuse in my wording - I was intending to show that the use of anything but a blanket would involve considerably more detailed arrangements than would the use of a blanket.
Bob
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