Posted By Mitch
I agree with that reporting the offenders to their employers is the right way to go however be careful earlier this week having witnessed this on the M1 I rang to report the driver and nearly crashed the car I was driving!

Posted By Mitch
It is Friday and I'm off to the pub in erm 11 minutes, I will be walking!

Have a good weekend everyone

Posted By DRB
Ian, chill out will you before you blow a gasket!

Posted By Richard Altoft
in round figures workers killed in the workplace total 250, workers killed on the roads total 1500 (and others killed total around 2000 more)
perhaps H&S professionals do need to reconsider where their focus should be. Problem is a death by failure to take due care on the roads is seen as a driver crime but in the workplace it is seen as an employers crime.
Just as dead and just as criminal but most managers and employers do not see behaviour of their drivers (or even their own behaviour)on the roads as a safety issue or worthy of their attention and they direct the H&S professionals accordingly
RoSPA seem to focus on this more than IOSH do currently

Posted By D H
Interesting thread and some interesting comments.

DRB - you have obviously never had to take evasive action on a motorway with your loved ones sitting beside you because some one was not in control because they were using a mobile. Good for you and I hope you never experience this situation.

Yes, if the employer issued an unsafe vehicle, then all hell would entail.
But what if the driver - on work business made that vehicle unsafe because of what they were, or were not doing while in charge of that vehicle on the motorway?

There was a fatality in my region where a young motorist left the road and struck a tree and killed himself. police later revealed that 10 seconds before the crash, he had sent a text message from the phone found in his hand!
Sorry for the lad but at least he only took his own life - - listening DRB?

So how do we deal with this? Legislation that covers all members of the public should also be endorsed by companies.
Any one driving on business should not be called by the company - yes i have had it from my own company before - but this has been stopped by upgrading and communicating this ruling. If we need to check progress etc this should be planned before the trip (lone working guidance?)
And instructing the driver not to use the personal mobile while driving.
If the HSE were to add the amount of people killed at work while driving (comes under Road traffic Regs) as part of their work duties - we may get some acknowledgement of the obvious problem we have.

Posted By C.J.
Ian,
Can you give us detailed guidance of how a H&S Advisor can stop all of his employees using a phone while driving.
If you can't then don't try and critise on this forum.

Posted By D H
Hi CJ and Steve B. I really think that Ian has come on here with a serious problem and is asking for a debate as how we better the standards ( or lack of) that are currently in place.

I am amazed at the amount of people who try to slopy shoulder things but if it happened in your company on Monday morning you may also seek advice.

There is a high potential for damage or injury and possibly worse if our drivers are guilty of these offences. SO what do we as advisors do about it.
We can also sloppy it off to the police as Steve suggest

"You have to accept it is a Police matter.

If your that keen to save us all; take the details of the drivers and report it to the police. Go and give a written statement and attend Court with the Police.

But its not the job of a safety adviser, is it?"

But if the driver is in our employment then it is our responsibility.
Think people - this is a serious situation and maybe a tread that could be moved to the members forum for better debate?

Posted By Catman
Hi All

Emotive stuff.

My opinion,

We absolutely should tightly control this issue in relation to employees under our remit in our working time. Employees should be trained so that they absolutely understand where the line is.

We cannot get involved in policing road safety in general, yes I understand the admirable desire to ensure safety in all aspects outside as well as inside our working lives, but to suggest we are failing in our professional responsibility by not reporting every mobile phone offender we see would be unrealistic at best.

If every one of us controls our own workforce in this group, it will help a lot, any further than that is a societal rather than occupational issue.

TW

Posted By Ian Blenkharn
Yes I am, though in a particularly narrow and specialised field. I also sit a professional standards committee and deal with these issues on a regular basis.

But you misunderstand the issues involved, that are far deeper than one driver breaking the law.

Let's assume it's not one driver, but most of a fleet. Is that their own problem, separately and individually? At that scale, what does it say about the company and its safety staff?

Got a D&A policy? Stick to it rigidly? But you cannot duck out of it when your drivers go off site and hit the road with 40 tonnes behind them? Either you take responsibility or you don't.

The news today tells of a demonstration in London to focus attention of the many construction companies that repeatedly flout H&S law. Some of those firms will have professional H&S staff, but are they taking sufficient responsibility, and if not have they gone too far to retain their qualifications and professional registration?

The greatest asset that any professional body can have is the high professional standards of its members. That asset must be safeguarded by rigorous entry standards and an obligation to training, examination and peer review, and CPD. The ultimate sanction is a professional standards committee that must exercise the power to sanction those who fail.

The orgiginal post was structured to explore this, and it has certainly been illuminating. Some see only the superficial issues, others want to excuse themselves for their own professional standards. That is very sad.

Posted By holmezy

Hi All,

This is obviously, and quite rightly a very emotive subject. I'm sure that most, if not all, of us see people on the phone whilst driving every time we venture out. Its a very difficult problem to solve.
The law now says that its illegal to use the phone whilst driving which is great in principal. As people we have a moral and legal duty to abide by the laws of the land, and most do. However, there is an ever increasing number of folks that either think the laws dont apply to them or that they won't get caught. How do a small number of police control a large number of vehicle drivers? At present they can only act if they see someone using the phone, so the odds are very firmly stacked against the police.
As a H+S person, I set policies and try and educate our employees about the law and emphasise that use of the phone is strictly forbidden. Add to this all the driver checks, medicals, vehicle checks etc then I consider it to come under my remit from a company responsibility whilst the employees are at work. This falls flat, because I cant monitor every employee that drives, all the time. How do I know if the employee has used his phone?
I suppose we could phone him and see if he answers the phone? Maybe he'll say that he has just pulled into a service area? Its a bit like the smokers who sneak of to the bikesheds, we know they do it, but difficult to catch them.
As for H+S reporting drivers that they see using the mobile phone. Yes, I suppose we have a moral duty to report a crime, but no more than a memeber of the public, or are we only concerned with drivers, (or own or others)that are at work at the time? Again, how do we know?
I am totally against using a phone whilst driving, however, its a massive task to police every vehicle. Most people will continue to use their phone until they either have a serious accident, are caught and prosecuted or when the deterrent becomes so high that it becomes not worth the risk, ie instant 12 month ban or whatever. And even then, there will still be a minority who feel that the law doesnt apply or they wont get caught.
I used to joke that I would be happy to drive up and down the motorway, or just around the cities, towns etc and take down the registration numbers of anyone I saw on the phone for £10 a time. I'm sure I could make a decent living out of it! Maybe its not such a bad idea after all!

I dont think there is an easy answer to this problem and until it becomes as socially unacceptable as assault or gbh or murder etc then it will always be with us.

Perhaps technology can come to our aid and invent a blocker that stops phones working in cars?

Holmezy
to

Posted By Steve Cartwright
Section 7 of HSWA

General duties of employees at work.

It shall be the duty of every employee while at work;

to take reasonable care for the health and safety of himself and of other persons who may be affected by his acts or omissions at work.

and

as regards any duty or requirement imposed on his employer or any other person by or under any of the relevant statutory provisions, to co-operate with him so far as is necessary to enable that duty or requirement to be performed or complied with.

Is that what you mean by taking responsibility?

Posted By Ian Blenkharn
Pete48

Of course, you're right. It is a mater of degree and that needs to be defined, measured and investigated thoroughly in every case.

But in raising his issue, the responses are sadly predictable. We are responsible people and know exactly what must be done, but we can't/shouldn't/wont be challenged when it goes pear shaped. Of course none of us can be perfect and errors will occur. Too often, or too serious, and steps must be taken to make sure that professional standards and responsibilities are being met. If investigation reveals that they are not then something must be done. Most respondents seem to believe that, whatever the degree - small or large - they should be excused from challenge. I had expected no more, though was quietly hoping it would be somewhat better.

Most professions manage professional standards. Transgress, and [ultimately] you're out. We expect that of healthcare staff, of pilots, and others. Why not of safety professionals?

In some many of those professions, professional standards committee minutes are available in the public domain, to provide reassurance that standards are being maintained and, in extremis, action is taken to enure that is is. Why not here?

A challenge? A threat? Or perhaps an insult? No - Think of it more as maintaining and supporting the profession. It's a positive thing, to protect the many from the few.

Posted By Steve Cartwright
Ian

In your original post you gave the impression that H&S Professionals should be held accountable for the actions of others in the organisation in which they work for.

You may be disappointed by most of the responses to your post but in the REAL!!! world most H&S Advisors/Officers/Managers have no authority over fellow employees. They are simply employed to give advice, investigate accidents/near misses, develop policies and procedures , carry out training etc.

99% of employees will have a Supervisor/Manager to whom they report to. Supervisor/Manager is responsible for ensuring that employees under their control follow company policies, procedures etc.

Most companies will have a mobile phone policy in place which should then be inforced by Directors/Dept Heads/Managers etc.

As stated in earlier response employees also have a duty of care under section 7 of HSWA. If the H&S Advisor/Officer/Manager was sitting next to Van Driver when he/she was on the phone I would say you had a valid point. But to suggest that the H&S Officer/Advisor/Manager should be held accountable for the failings of others is very disappointing especially from one of our own.

Steve