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Posted By Steve j B
A 2 storey premise with an office downstairs and a domestic flat up stairs. No common areas. The office only has 5 people in it and the floor/ceiling between the two is 1/2 hr fire protected.
What would you fire guys out their expect to see with regards to fire detection and alarm? Would you expect to see an automatic alarm due to the sleeping accommodation above?
Any advice welcome
Cheers
Steve
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Posted By Steve j B
Any Ideas?
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Posted By shaun mckeever
Well for a start I would expect to see 1 hour fire separation not 1/2 hr.
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Posted By GT
Steve jB,
Good advice from Shaun, you should start with a fire risk assessmenT.
This will indicate what is required.
Regards
GT
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Posted By Martin Taylor
GT
steve is doing a risk assessment - his question on the forum is to help him make decisions on what to do to deal with a possible heightened risk
I don't know the answer cos I'm not an expert - I guess this arrangement of buildings os very very common - housing estates with a parade of shops with flats above would be similar - but I have never seen linked smoke alarms. It sounds a good idea though
Martin
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Posted By GT
Martin,
I guess you may be correct, and perhaps my point was not too obvious.
There are members on this forum who have repeatedly given good advise in respect of this subject of Fire. They have also expressed their concerns about people who without sufficient knowledge are completing a fire risk assessment.
Therefore, the best advice I would offer is to conduct a risk assessment.
If you don't have the knowledge base to do that then perhaps you shouldn't be doing it.
Nothing clever in this but just good advice and that is what this forum should be promoting, in my view, not how to do it with little pieces of each individuals knowledge base, of what may do the job.
Regards
GT
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Posted By Steve j B
Thanks for the advice guys,
I always thought that the idea of this forum was to allow people to ask questions where situations may arise which some people haven't encountered before.
By asking questions does this then make someone incompetent?? i don't think so.
What is wrong with seeking advice from someone with perhaps more specific experience in certain areas?
Shaun, thanks for the advice - i have since made further enquiries and there is 1hr protection between the floors.
Martin, Thanks for the support
GT, thanks for nothing
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Posted By Sheila EJ Keogh
Steve,
we have a ground floor office with individual flats above. the fire alarms are linked, which i don't think is that unusual.
sheila
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Posted By Steve j B
sheila
Thank you for that, i don't think it's unrealistic in order to protect the occupants in the flats should a fire occur during the night when the office is unoccupied
Steve
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Posted By GT
Steve jB,
Not very polite, however, you are very welcome.
GT
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Posted By shaun mckeever
Guys
Don't be critical of GT. His track record on this forum has always been to help. Sometimes I think we are a bit too eager to criticise. I'm sure his intention was to provide good advice.
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Posted By Steve j B
Hi Shaun,
I wasn't really criticising GT, i was just after some advice on fire alarms from some fellow professionals. I appreciate all advice given, especially yours where fire is concerned.
What was really unhelpful was the advice to carry out a risk assessment!!!
Would still like the advice on the original question if anyone has anything to offer
Cheers
Steve
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Posted By Geoff Parkinson
Steve,
I'd be happy with 1/2 hour fire separation between the ground and first floors. We used to insist on 1 hour separation between basement and ground in the 'olden days', but not other floors. The new documentation only refers to high risk areas still having 1 hour separation - your area is 'normal' risk from how you described it.
A shared fire alarm would help, and support the option of 1/2 hour fire separation - people will be out the building long before the fire breaks through the floor. The alarm doesn't need to be complex - it just needs to do the job.
I presume the flat has a separate entrance as there are no common areas? Just make sure no windows from the office open onto, or directly, face, the stairs - if the staircase
is external. If they do, the glass should be 1/2 hour FR too.
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Posted By Steve j B
Hi Geoff,
Thanks for your advice.
The floor is 1hr separation and there are no common areas. No windows or doors open into the stairway.
My thoughts are that an automatic alarm would help to protect the sleeping occupants
Steve
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Posted By shaun mckeever
Building regs still require 1 hour fire separation. Half hour would not be acceptable in my view. Fitting a fire alarm to the office with a sounder in the domestic flat in principle sounds good but there are complications such as the requirements for testing and mainteance and false alarms in the middle of the night. My reasons for maintaining the 1 hour fire separation is that even with an alarm fitted there is no gaurantee that the occupants of the flat will wake up. They may be under the influence of alcohol or drugs or they may have hearing impairments. The 1 hour separation that you have is the most important safeguard for the residential occupants. My view is that you should have a fire alarm but that it should be linked to an alarm receiving centre rather than sound in the flat above. If a fire does occur in the office the occupants will have some degree of protection (1 hour) and the fire service will automatically be called.
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Posted By Phillip
I too find in itself the advice "do a risk assessemnt" not helpful unless followed with good comment.
That said my initial comments are as follows. Yes I would expect to see automatic fire detection in the shop & the flat. The shop and the flat could be seperately owned (and if not the owner may one to sell them seperately at some future date). To that end I would not link the detection system in the shop to the one in the flat. Your risk assessemnt must ensure there is adequate means of detection & escape from each property.
Automatic detection does have to be designed correctly. Early detection of fire is critical to life safety as it alerts occupants who can then move away from the fire to a place of total safety.
for example an electronic fire alarm system should be designed in accordance with BS 5839. The system should be for Category L which is for life protection. Category L has 5 levels:
· L1 Complete coverage
· L2 L3 + specified additional areas
· L3 Escape routes plus rooms opening onto escape routes
· L4 escape routes only
· L5 Tailor made to support specific fire safety objectives.
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Posted By shaun mckeever
Phillip surely it is obvious that fire detection has to be designed correctly. The alternative is to design it incorrectly.
Is it the responsibility of the questioner to ensure detection in the flat or safe escape from the flat?
Which category of detection system are you suggesting the questioner uses? Should the alarm system be designed to BS5839 part 6 rather than BS5839 part 1?
As I said earlier it is easy to criticise and does not benefit anyone.
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Posted By Steve j B
Thanks Guys,
My understanding was that as the flat above is a privately owned domestic premise, apart from alerting them of a fire below there is nothing else required (prepares to be shot down in flames!)
As one person has already stated there a lot of these types of premises that don't have any alarm system at all!!
Steve
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Posted By shaun mckeever
No need to be shot down in flames. Your assumption is correct.
As for the detection system - as suggested earlier it really is your assessment. You might want to consider the following:-
What is the risk to the person in the flat? You say you have 1 hour fire separation, what is the nature of the separation? is it concrete, timber, steel decking? How well is it maintained? How old is the building? Is it Victorian? Is it in an area where there is a high incidence of arson? How well managed is the office? Does it have a high fire load? Are there any common risers or routes for fire spread to the flat from the office? What is the naure of the domestic occupants e.g are they disabled? Drug addicts? Have you or your client discussed this issue with the flat occupants? Is they who have raised the issue of having smoke detection below?
It is a simple fire risk assessment but maybe surprisingly a lot of questions.
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