Posted By Martin Taylor This is a very good question and difficult topic. I would say that it is possible to accept that an individual is competent through other than bits of paper:- 1) supervisors opinion (given supervisor is adequate) 2) no of years experience without incident It seems to me that we can drown in paperwork to 'prove' competence to inspectors or solicitors. And how often do those bits of paper actually prove competence - it is after all more than having attended a training day 30 years ago and possibly passing a test. Perhaps the best way is to have a periodic assessment of the individuals - by their supervisor or by independent assessor and to record the conclusions (actioning any identified deficiencies) - nice idea but is it practicable and what about the highly skilled craftsman - is it necessary to assess something that is demonstrated everyday I have woffled a bit here but I think that this topic deserves wider discussion - or perhaps previous threads have done the point to death - if so can somebody reference ta Martin

Posted By Robert K Lewis You cannot train for competence as training is an element of competence. Richard's question touches on the very real need to manage competence in an ongoing manner. Periodic review of performance is bt one element of this. If you would like to email me I am free to talk to you any time week commencing 01/10 when I am back in my office. Bob

Posted By andrew morris or reviews/assessment I should add

Posted By Paul Oliver think about vocational qualifications (NVQ's) for your employees. CITB will be able to assit.

Posted By andrew morris Sorry to be pedantic, but original post says there is no paperwork to say they are competant on tools x,y or z... the original training as a plumber could have centered on wrenches and rhubarb - unless the certificate or other proof says otherwise... We are here to worry about proper health and safety management, not whether staff say they have been shown on it before... Richard, you have to remember, if they have an accident, the insurer/inspector will not accept a general plumbing qualification as proof they can use oxyacetaline without some form of training (which says they have been trained on oxyaceltaline) and assessment... Honestly, read Section 2 of the Health and Safety at work etc. Act 1974, Provision and Use of Work Equipment and Management Regs... They all say Train, train, train... One last one before I stop forever on the thread - Can you guarantee it is identical equipment to that which they were trained on at college (if you can prove they were)... No advances in technology since then? No updates to the models? I honestly think you are on such thin ice if you don't ensure trained on the equipment both in terms of civil and crim its just not worth it... On another note, would you let them drive a FLT or do manual handling if their plumbing certificate didn't say they'd passed those and you'd not trained them... I hope not.... Peace out...

Posted By Martin Savage My interpretation from HSE acops etc has always been that competence is a combination of Knowledge, training and experience. In this case it seems to me that:- Knowledge - it should be evident to anyone who questions them that they know their onions on traditional plumbing. It may be worth checking how they keep up to date with developments in modern techniques, tools and materials though. Training - An apprenticeship should be adequate evidence of training, though see below. Experience - Yes, plenty. As already stated a good way of demonstrating competence, which takes into account all of the above criteria is to obtain an NVQ and possibly also a CSCS card. You may also be able to obtain government funding for the NVQ of level 2, or part funding if NVQ3 or above. Good luck.

Posted By Philip McAleenan Richard, Competence continually keeps coming up as a topic that concerns many in the industry, and there are so many views on that matter that often we are left wondering what the position is and how we are to measure it. If it of any use to you and others who contributed to or read this thread, the Ireland and NI branches of IOSH hosted a major conference this week with papers presented on competence, training and interactive planning. Two of those papers are on-line at http://www.web-safety.com/ (click on the conference icon, Map of Ireland). They provide a perspective that competence is more than simply a record of attendance on training courses and that much wider considerations come into play the older and more experienced a person becomes. I hope that they are useful, contact me directly if you want further information, Regards, Philip

Posted By Robert K Lewis Competence and its maintenance is much more about proper management systems that involve review, standards for measurement, assessment of performance along with other maters such as behaviours and attitudes. The HSE guidance for competece management systems in the safety critical and safety related control systems sector has been published and provides "food for thought" for all work sectors. The HSE themselves state in the document that it provides good practice for other work sectors. Like the NI branch the Midlands branch focused heavily on this term in construction in their May conference. It will continue to be an issue as long as we continue to see competence purely in terms of training needs and paperwork. Structured professional/trade/other development on an ongoing basis is a key to all performance and is one of the reasons why IOSH and other professional bodies have placed it so clearly at the core of their development. Bob