Posted By J Knight
Eyup,

Has he issued or threatened to issue a notice about this? 'Cos of course if he hasn't you can just ignore him. We have had some very zealous fire officers, but so far we haven't had one I've disagreed with, and from what you say it does sound like you have the better arguments here,

John

Posted By Ron Hunter
What Authority has a Fire Officer got to tell anyone to paint a walkway?

Could be a Planning/ Building Control issue here with the sub-division of the building, in which case the landlord would have some or maybe all liability.

The "co-operation and co-ordination" in a shared workplace sounds like a Catch 22. Presumably everyone is self-contained just now, but the inference of shared exits would mean you're not.
I admit to some puzzlement on the partition door.The inference is that it would have to (literally) swing both ways. So how do you keep it shut (i.e. fire stopped)?

Posted By safety medic
Shoot me down in flames if i'm wrong(Sorry had to be done.) but with the FSO what is a fire officer doing an inspection/fire certificate for anyway. they relinquished the responsibility for this last year. The responsibility is now on;

1 the landlord as owner of the buildings and responsible person to conduct a risk assessment and communicate emergency provisions to all occupiers.

2. for occupiers (and subsequently) employers to conduct their own RA for the works being undertaken and take into account the details contained within the owners RA and the adjactent works.

Co-operation is the key (and the law)

The LA Fire Service have similar powers to the LA/HSE inspectors but this doen'nt sound the same.

Suggest get what he says in writing first and enquire as to where he came from, who asked him to attend.


PS cant rescue the cat on industrial action.

Posted By J Knight
Hi safety medic,

The local F&RS will certainly conduct inspections under the terms of the RR(FS)O; you're quite right to say that they won't certificate a premises in the old way, but what they will do is inspect against a fire risk assessment produced by a competent person, and if they don't like what they find they have a variety of ways of encouraging compliance, from an agreed action plan (which we have already had in one of our premises) through formal notices to prosecution. They are in this role very much like the HSE, and their powers and means of remediation are modelled very closely on those accorded to HSE in HASAWA,

John

Posted By pluto
My. my. the blind leading the blind.

Where to start?

The duty to comply in this case rests with the employer.
Of course the Fire officer is allowed to enforce if they are of the opinion that your have failed to comply. They are under a DUTY to enforce
If several exits are no longer available, are the remaining exits sufficient?
If the existing exits are required then cooperation becomes imperative, (though I would suggest almost impossible to manage).
Who says you are low risk...there are no charts in the guidance. Perhaps the Fire Officer disagrees with your assessment of risk.
Perhaps the yellow lines were an attempt at allowing the slightly extended travel distances.
Did your landlord go through the Blg Regs process?

Posted By Ashley Wood
Sorry, pinch me or slap me but did I here the mention of spark detection in extract duct! how can you say you are low risk? For the uninitiated, a spark detection system is required because there is a chance that what ever is going on in your process could cause a spark which could lead to an explosion. The process you are involved in could be producing chip board from waste wood or shredding rags for making sound proofing or something like that. If the shredding process hits a nail in the wood or a zip, button or stone in the rags a spark could be produced that would travel down the duct and into the cyclone that is gathering the material. End result, BIG BANG! A spark detection system detects a spark traveling at up to 1000 feet per second and initiates damper shut down and extinguishing systems.

The end product that is shredded is then bound using an adhesive (fumes, vapour), low risk!

The items are then stacked in a warehouse ready for dispatch. They contain raw materials and bonding agents, low risk!

Tell us the full picture, what does your company make and store? When a fire officer carries out an 'enforcement' visit (not a fire risk assessment) he will be looking at all these factors. He will be looking at the position of fire exits and the distance needed to reach them, not 'as the bird fly's' but by going around racking, equipment etc. He will then discount some of these exits and then make up his mind as to what you have and what you should do.

A word of caution for all you doubters of the powers of enforcing officers. If you do not agree with what has been said you can contest it, but make sure you have your facts right. If you wish to ignore the enforcers requirements and an incident happens, you best make sure you have a large reserve of cash or have a liking for the company of your own sex for a few months!

If a member of the HSE visited your premises and required certain things be done to satisfy safety regulations, would you ignore them?

I am amazed that I have read what I have read on this site of all places. You should all take fire & safety seriously, you are all H&S professionals (I think).

Before I get off my soap box take a look at the recent fines imposed on one of the co-op supermarkets. £250k for what some of you may consider minor infringements in the light of your postings in this thread.

Posted By Crim
While most of you think the fire officer is wrong, have you thought that he may be right and the fact that a building has been split up into smaller units may have effectively blocked off access to the means of escape? The requirement for a fire risk assessment does not mean that previous standards should be allowed to slip.

I would like more information and a drawing of the building as was, and is now would be helpful.

Mention of a high fire risk process is one consideration, and the requirement for painted lines identifying a route to a means of escape is another but please remember not all fire officers are fools just because they get bad press at times.

I frequently experience shared escape routes through adjoining buildings and part of the fire procedure is to regularly check that the access through these routes is available at all times, with written records of the checks. It literally "works both ways" hence responsibility for co-operation and co-ordination is held by all concerned parties.

Posted By Ashley Wood
Phil,

Thank you for 'pinching and slapping' me. I was obviously on a different planet. You could probably tell that I was annoyed at the suggested incompetence or over eagerness of the fire officer and as always I jump to the defence of the faceless! Now back to the discussion.

Is there any detection in the warehouse?

Posted By safety medic
For me there is still a couple of points nit cleared up.

1. Put aside the spark detection! and WHAT the fire officer said. I am still interested in why he was there, which would help clear up confusion on his position to insist on the changes. What initiated the visit? Landlord, neighbouring compnay in same building? Has he given the same stipulations to the other resisdent companies and the landlord.

2. Sorry to repeat myself but it is somewhat worrying that the issue of co-operation in the building doesn't appear to be managed either by A. the landlord and B. the occupying companies.

Remember that under legislation you have a responsibility to co-operate with all compaines within the building, so despite the fact that each area is a separate company you MUST talk to the other companies 'responsible person' and the landlord to establish emergency arrangements and the landlord has a responsibility also as the owner. Remember you need to be aware of the fire risks of the companies next to you and the impact it may have on A. your works, B. your escape in the event of a fire in either your or neighbour.

Posted By safety medic
I accept your point with the existing exits and the distances involved, but putting that aside, I would also encourage the co-operation because you do share a building. Just bacause it has been split up doesnt absolve the need to talk to your neighbours.

Whilst you cant always be sure that the other side of the door is free from hazards, only by 'clubbing' together all the responsible persons' will you be able to minimise the chance, and by building the relationship you can always end up helping each other out.

Love conquors all!!! Get hugging!

Posted By halesowen Baggie
WE DONT SHARE EXITS (THE FIRE OFFICER WANTS US TO).

If there were a fire now the employees would not be able to go through 'shared' exits as they are locked shut.

The building is one big rectangle with exits at both ends if the person is in the center of the building he has no more than 50m in a straight line to get out.

My RA has covered everything sources of heat (ignition), fuel,LPG store(away from main building etc etc), likelihood of flame throwing terrorist coming in and setting light to everything, electrical systems and so on.

Sprinkler systems (taken from the guidance page 61 that HM government put out for factories and warehouses....'Sprinkler systems can be very effective in controlling fires. They can be designed to protect life and/or property.....

Posted By Heather Collins
HB - just to clarify - are BOTH your side walls (the ones with the locked shut doors that were previously fire exits) internal partition walls with neighbouring premises or is one of them an original external wall?

I would assume from what you say that it's the former, but I was struggling to see how a building could be divided into 4 without each of you having an external wall....

We had a similar travel distance issue in a warehouse and we fitted beam smoke detection. Early detection of a fire significantly reduces the risk that your employees will find themselves in a "no escape" situation due to the slightly increased travel distances.

I sympathise with your problem about shared access. I can understand if you also have security responsibility (as I do) there's a whole different way of looking at this!