Posted By Mark Eastbourne
First, please forgive me, I only have 5 minutes in this computer so have not had the chance to search if a topic had arisen before which could have answered my question.

As I understand it, a person must first be competence to carry out the task or operate the machine that he or she is to risk assess.

In addition, that person must have received some training in risk assessment, for example, perhaps legal requirements, definitions of risk and hazard, introduction into the realms perhaps of semi-quantitative risk assessments.

The training would have included examples of risk assessments on tasks which they would raise.

The second part of the training would include a practical session where a competent risk assessor would go through a task in that persons area, for example, a Technician in an engineering workshop and the trainer going through the workings of a lathe or drill, both which the Technician is competent to use.

After the trainer is happy that the Technician can carry out a risk assessment correctly, and this could be after a couple of risk assessments were completed satisfactorily, would this make the person competent to carry out other risk assessments in his/her area? I am not talking about fire risk assessments or COSHH assessments but risk assessments on machinery which the technician uses or hazardous tasks he carries out.

Obviously this responsibility would be reflected in his job description and the training instigated by a staff development review or something?

It is just that I was told today that only Management could carry out risk assessments and not employees, even though they had undergone this sort of training! My argument was how would that Manager be able to carry out a suitable and sufficient risk assessment on a machine he may never have operated?

The risk assessment by the way, is actually signed off by the manager of the area.

And that is my query. Please if you are reading this and feel it is a very basic query, please answer, please say yes or not, or give me any advice or guidance. Please take for granted that the 5 steps to risk assessment and the NEBOSH guidance on a risk assessment forms part of the training.

Many thanks in anticipation of your feedback. My time is up.

Mark

Posted By Paul Craythorne
Mark,

I agree with the previous reply in that anyone who is deemed competent can carry out risk assessments although the comment that they are trained to NEBOSH standard is incorrect.

Whoever told you that only management can carry out risk assessments is very much mistaken and needs educating.

Employes form an integral part of the risk assessment process as it is often their knowledge and experience of the equipment/process that enables a suitable and sufficient risk assessment to be completed. To exclude them from the process is not the brighest of ideas.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Paul Craythorne

Posted By Pete48
Mark,
-you raise a question about competence to do risk assessments.
-you raise a question about how someone can be competent to assess a machine if they have never operated that machine.
My answer is that risk assessment is not a single dimension, it is multi dimensioned. It can have many faces and be trying to meet many needs. For example, if you are designing or modifying a machine, then you need to be competent to complete a design risk assessment. That might require a little more than a few days of training on principles. On the other hand, if you are checking that operating risk controls are in place, you may be competent from the sort of training that you identify.
It is therefore not easy to give a firm answer to your questions. If I might assume that you are focused on the production/operating/maintenance aspect of risk assessment. Here the assessment is usually more about checking that all the known or recommended controls are in place, understood and followed. For example, cutting oils used may be within COSHH do operators know thr safe means to use it and do they do it that way.
Remember that no-one involved will be competent in all the areas that this risk assessment may cover but they will be aware that guidance, instruction etc is available and that it must be included in the risk assessment. If this is where you are then I would offer the following thoughts.
Managers must ensure that suitable and sufficient risk assessments are completed. They choose the method that best suits their undertaking. Whilst they may not have hands on experience of that machine they may be better aware of some of the other dimensions. Even if operators complete the risk assessments, they should still be checked by managers.
However, it is vital to the successful completion of such risk assessments that checks are made of the manner in which the machines are operated and maintained in that production line. So clearly, the machine operatives and maintenance staff have essential information relevant to a suitable and sufficient risk assessment. It follows that best practice would suggest a team approach to such risk assessments; perhaps led by a manager with team members from production and maintenance staff. This also has the benefit of helping with any follow up items from the risk assessment.
So to get back to your questions.
Competence to do basic workplace risk assessment in a working environment where sound engineering management has been applied can be achieved with training in risk assessment principles and some basic hazard awareness training. In other circumstances it probably isn’t enough on its own and would require other competency such as engineering competence for example.
Hands- on experience with any particular machine is not a pre-requisite to completing suitable and sufficient risk assessments.

Posted By Rob Randall
Pete48 says

"However, it is vital to the successful completion of such risk assessments that checks are made of the manner in which the machines are operated and maintained in that production line. So clearly, the machine operatives and maintenance staff have essential information relevant to a suitable and sufficient risk assessment."

I think you are at cross purposes here. Machinery risk assessments are about the PUWER regs which specify the categories of things that should be in place. Yes, it will be necessary to clearly understand how the machine operates and how it can be maintained safely. However you imply that the RA should examine how the operators are doing the job in practice, but this is more to do with safety checks and inspections than risk assessment.

The completed risk assessment should specify whether or not the machine complies with PUWER and what additional controls are necessary for the machine to be operated and maintained safely. If there is non-standard or incorrect procedure this is a training and supervision issue and not about risk assessment.

regards,

Bob R

Posted By Paul Craythorne
Bob R,

No problem.

I just thought that I would point out to the originator of the posting that NEBOSH training is not a requirement to do risk assessments (heaven forbid they make enough money as it is without giving them another fee earner to hit us with!!).

Paul

Posted By Mark Eastbourne
Thank you very much Rob, Paul, Brian, Pete48 and Bob for your responses.

Hope to get this issue sorted, union member is saying that Management should be doing the risk assessments still and that he has spoken to his union area manager and the HSE who have supported his opinion so I wanted this cleared up.

For more information in this matter please fell free to email me, I could with the help!

Mark

Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Paul,

The mailing led me to think you were saying only people who are cirtified can be relied upon to a risk assessment and I felt it important that those who undertake risk assessments fuly appreciated that it is a very large world and no one person could possibly know all the answers. Someone with very littler education can easily point at the dangers of doing something if they have had the experience. What I was trying to say its not certification that makes a good risk assessment but experience.

Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Paul, I guess what I am saying is it takes all types of expertise to do a propoer risk assessment. Those who undertake an activity most will probably be worth thier weight in Gold when developing the asessment, please remember those who undertake an activity most will already know about the dangers and can be worth many hours of testing. Please remember those who carryout the task in question may already have seen the outcomes of most things that go wrong, so use thier experience to best advantage when doing a risk assessment. Follow that small rule and the risk assessments will be much more robust and will most likely be followed by those who undertake the task.