Posted By Pamela Marshall
We are having a discussion on grandfather rights.

Is there any guidance/legislation on whether grandfather rights are allowed or not allowed.

I have found something on the HSE website for quarries.

Information on the rail industry would be particularly useful.

Thanks

Pamela

Posted By Bob Shillabeer
orry grandfather rights don't stand for anything anymore in the modern rail industry. Various bits of legislation has taken over Grandfather rights and thank goodness for that. In a modern industry which still has some very dangerous risks there is no room for grandfather rights, it is very important that competent staff and good practice has taken over from the sitting with Nellie types of training and competence being deemed once and not re assessed at sopecified periods to check the correct level of competence remains in place. That's why driver training has improved so much over the years and railway group standards are the main drivers of this long overdue improvement.

Posted By Merv Newman
Grandfather rights exist as long as the grandfather does. Or until the legislation says otherwise.

Example : old equipment, materials, things that did not comply with CE marking but were put into use before the law changed can still remain in use. NEW things must comply.

Example : I got to be MIOSH just because I had been a long time in the trade before I applied. (I think it had to be about five years) I am now CMIOSH without any formal safety qualifications. Grandfather clause.

But, as far as I know, (our son has not let on) I am not even a grandad.

Merv

Posted By Bob Youel

M is correct I forgot to add in the other facts

Posted By Mike B
Pamela,
I do not believe there is definitive guidance or legislation on whether grandfather rights are allowed or not. It is usually part of whatever law is being introduced at the time, if appropriate.

One point is that although the term 'grandfather rights' began in post civil war USA, the concept of whether a law applies retrospectively is not a relic from a bygone time and there are plenty of examples that still exist and I am sure more that will arise in the future.

For example, I did not have to take a separate theory test as part of my driving test in 1987. Now it is compulsory. This is known as a grandfathered situation and means I do not have return to do a theory test to drive legally. In fact driving and vehicles are littered with grandfathered situations although we may not always refer to them as such.

Although railway activities may have no examples of grandfather rights, I am pretty sure that older carriages on the railway network do not have to conform to all modern standards, which creates a grandfathered situation.

IOSH have themselves applied grandfather rights when CMIOSH was introduced as Merv points out.

However, when the requirement for woodworking machines to stop within 10 seconds was introduced, a grandfathered situation was not permitted and braking devices on woodworking machines had to be retrofitted. In this instance within a 5 year transition period.

It is often the case where it is logistically and financially difficult to apply the rules retrospectively these situations arise.

In terms of competence in work practices using tools and equipment, company policies should state a requirement for refresher training thus the issue of grandfather rights is negated and workers are brought onto a level playing field.

The origin of grandfather rights is quite interesting though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause

Posted By Pamela Marshall
Bob S, Bob Y, Merv, Brigham, Raymond and Mike,

Thanks for all your responses - I appreciate it.

It helped alot - you helped confirm what I was thinking.

Thanks

Pamela

Posted By Steven John Bateson
Pamela,
I work as an inspector for HMRI and am more than happy to give advice to any duty holder in the rail industry. It'll take me a little while to get there (building up the legal background)but I will answer your point.
1/ There is a general duty under HSWAs2, expanded on in s(2)(c) to provide employees with 'such information, inspection, training and supervision as is necessary'

Note that thsi requires such training AS IS NECESSARY.

2/ For Safety Critical Workers in the rail industry there are specific competence requirements in the Railways & Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations 2006, part 4 in that every controller of safety critical work shall, so far as is reasonably practicable, ensure that any person under his supervision, management or control, only carries out Safety Critical Work where he has been assessed as being competent and fit to do so and there is a record of the criteria used to carry out that assessment.

Note that the legislation does not specify what the criterion should be i.e. it is up to the industry to set suitable and sufficient criteria'.

Now I can answer your question: as long as the 'granfather', with bags of experience but no formal training, is assessed against and passes the same competence criterion as others carrying out the same task and those criterion are suitable and sufficient, then with the exceptions noted below he can continue to carry out the task without formal training.

Now se come to the exception:

In the absence of specific criteria within the legislation we fall back on Codes of Practice, ORR / HSE guidance and industry best practice for a bench mark to what a court MAY consider suitable and sufficient.

Note that only a court can make the final decision so it is possible to fully comply with all guidance and Codes of Practice etc and still be found guilty of a breach (seems unfair I know but my job is to tell it as it is).

Thus, if the task carried out by the 'grandfather' you have in mind has specific training requirements laid down in guidance, group standards or company standards etc, then I would advise that you send 'grandad' on the training course