Posted By MICK MEAD, CMIOSH
Scenario - a school planning to give every pupil a laptop. Clearly the pupils are not employees, and DSE assessments (lets face it, the equipment will be in "prolonged use") at the homes of hundreds of pupils is not going to work out. However, I think the school would have a duty of care here. I'm concerned about the ergonomic issues mainly, but also wary about electrical safety in terms of the power leads that are likely to be much-used.
what are the opinions of my colleagues out there? Would instructing the pupils in the safe ergonomic set-up of laptops be the best approach - including manual handling and personal security issues, or am I missing something?

You views would be greatly appreciated. I know the situation with employees but the pupil status is a new aspect for me.


Regards, Mick

Posted By Suvid
Mick,

I totally agree with you. In fact I am of the opinion that ergonomic principles should be taught early in life. It helps to form the 'right' habits. Principle of allignments in the body and maintaining correct posture during work should be emphasised right at the school level.


Suvid

Posted By garyh
In my view laptops are a real problem if used more than for minutes at a time; the only ergonomic way to use them is to have a proper keyboard attached (and preferably a monitor, workstation etc). However, they are often just put on a table (or bed!!) and people hunch over them to type.........

Posted By garyh
Great initiative except that laptops are a nightmare in terms of ergonomics - what is wrong with a desktop, using data sticks to carry the data around?

Posted By Raymond Rapp
Without wishing to rub 'salt into the wound' I thought my eyes were deceiving me with this thread. Thank God for DRB's intervention.

Safety practitioners are supposed to consider real and significant risks!

Regards

Ray

Posted By Philby'
Excellent...a polarisation of views, my favourite:

speaking as a reasonable person, (sometimes), I have to agree with both points of view...we are definitely in danger of blowing this all out of proportion, by denying a very useful learning tool, by either removing the provision or putting in excessive controls and frankly boring training....

HOWEVER

....my daughter complains of having a bad back, a cricked neck and is exhibiting, what she describes as pins and needles in her right hand and fingers. She has her own kids laptop and a nintendo thingy.

Shes eight and I cannot talk to her about posture, not bending over, not gripping the mouse or stylus too tight, not sitting too close to the screen, (and limit the time spent which elicits sulks and stomping around like a blond gorilla), not to turn her music down (except if its the Clash or NMA), not to run into the road, not cycling without her helmet.

I used to climb the local quarry, had my first cigarette, walk to town on the railway tracks, swing across branches above the reservoir etc etc when I was her age, I often think I am very lucky to still be here.

She has been taught to sit correctly at the PC at school and kind of understands what I do for a living...and laughs as I am currently wearing a carpal tunnel splint!

Yes advise of the dangers, but do it gently, let them get on with it, and then tell them I told you so! Its what we invariably do as a profession and inevitably do as parents

Philby'

Posted By peter gotch
Garry.

What's wrong with familiarising pupils with H&S issues at school?

Precisely, the principles as to why IOSH have produced the Wise up to Work package

http://www.wiseup2work.co.uk/

and why various organisations have produced guidance materials for children on the dangers of construction sites [and broader risks].

Given the number of injuries associated with DSE, [with the risks of PCs exacerbated in Laptop use, particularly if not equipped with keyboard etc] makes sense to me to inform these users.

NOT in my view a bonkers conkers situation. Laptops may not kill anyone, but do we really want to cause an "RSI" epidemic amongst the next generation of the workforce? [Bad enough that many of them are already slouching in front of video games rather than kicking a ball around]

Regards, Peter

Posted By Tabs
My goodness !!

There are H&S people out there that think no harm can come from misuse of laptops? Are you winding us up?

Do you really think it is even close to 'conkers bonkers' to try and educate a young user about posture, use, and electrical safety? Amazing.

I can only presume you have never had to deal with WRULD or RSI. It can literally be disabling. People have had to change jobs because of it, after only a few years of poor setup. Imagine the school kid after five years - they may not be able to get a job which relies on their use of a keyboard!

A 240v-12v transformer carried about in a satchel/school bag, draped across the bedroom / dining room table ... can't you foresee some damage to the cable?

Nowhere did Mick suggest denying the project the go-ahead, he simply asked what the school needed to do.

Well, the Regs say assess; inform; train; monitor. Do that, in a sensible way and you will be doing them a good service.

As for kids not listening, it's a school for goodness sake - my hope is that they know how to get kids to listen.

DRB, you mention 15 years, CMIOSH, and say that people are "standing in the way" by suggesting reasonable care to young people yet to even start their working life. As a lawyer do you not think that the school owes a duty of care? Would you like to defend the personal injury case brought in two years time? (A real 'class action'). What line would you take? "The kids wouldn't have listened even if I did try to tell them how to use it safely"?

Hmmm....

Posted By AHS
Current civil case law tends to preclude members of the Public from the Safety regulations even though Sec 3 of HSWA includes visitors etc.

A very arbitrary state of affairs.

Posted By Jonathan Breeze
Does the fact that these laptops have been "gifted" alter in any way the legal obligations of the school?

The discussion, to my mind, has not yet dealt with that aspect of the question.

Posted By AHS
Does the fact that these laptops have been "gifted" alter in any way the legal obligations of the school?

I dont think so as they are children and presumably have to use them. I think the tort of negligence based upon DSE regs could still be proven.

Posted By Jon Vitta
If you were really going to tow the Health and Safety line you'd look at the hierarchy of controls!


How on earth could you prove injury was caused using the Laptop and not the playstation 3 upstairs?

Posted By Tabs
"How on earth could you prove injury was caused using the Laptop and not the playstation 3 upstairs?"

and

"hand them out with no further action required"

Mick - these comments seem to show a disregard for the well-being of the children and not a responsible professional's approach to the provision of equipment. I would counsel you to treat the pupils as I would treat anyone and provide them with the support they need to use the equipment safely.

There is no difference in the need of a pupil and the need of an employee is there?

Unless you count the fact that a young skeleton is probably even more susceptible to damage through poor posture than an adult ...

There is no difference in the need of a pupil's portable appliance and the portable appliance of an employee is there?

Unless of course you've ever seen a kid's approach to looking after cables and wires ...

I can't understand the stance of withholding information and training at all. This isn't an imaginary risk, this is a well documented and high impact risk leading to injuries every day of the year.

No offence Garry, but your review appears to be wrong to me.

Tabs,
BSc(hons) Occ Health & Safety, CMIOSH.

Posted By Liesel
Reading this thread has been interesting: it's easy to see how we can end up with two extremes of opinion. Also to be a little pedantic there is also the issue that the DSE regs don't actually apply here as the children are not employees or self-employed....

Perhaps the thing to do is to try put aside concern about civil liabilities and think about a pragmatic response?

First off, I do not in any way under-rate the impact of RSI- I have long-term spine damage so I know at first hand the impact of poor posture- however I am not at all convinced that quoting the "formal legal" situation would help here.

IMO, by all means give some "common sense" guidelines on using laptops. Along with same about sitting properly at the desk when writing in your schoolbooks (anyone sat on a school chair recently?), carrying your books home from school and so forth. Laptop use is only one of many activities done by school pupils (home and in school) that can give you a "bad back" later on... But again, much of this is HOW you present the whole shebang... I tend also to agree that it could be ever so easy to end up down the "bonkers conkers" route on this one.

As for my background, I have considerably less formal H&S quals than many on here- but I've also watched my nephew & niece and friends and using a laptop is certainly not the only risk factor in terms of ergonomics... if you saw how much time they spend texting (and using the playstation), reading, plus the angle they sit at/lie on floor at to write in good ol'-fashioned paper exercise books for homework you'd realise what I mean. That's before we get to the hours on the phone to their mates with the receiver tucked under their head so they can eat/use playstation/paint their nails etc whilst they talk......

So how would I do it? Yes, advice- but make it more in the nature of general health advice as part of overall personal development curriculum. Talk about using the (mobile)phone, texting etc too. (Perhaps you want to debate the media scare-type stories about harm from phone emissions when you're on the subject...?) Maybe even a little tiny mention about work things as a link..... but please, please, leave the DSE regs book on the shelf when you do it. I cannot think of a quicker way to turn off my young relatives than quoting "rules" at them....

But that is JMO though- and as I say I guess I am a lot less well "qualified" than most on here.

Posted By MICK MEAD, CMIOSH
Many thanks for all your input. You confirm that my thoughts were very much along the right line.

Best regards,

Mick

Posted By Lilian McCartney
Just to throw something else into the pot.

Wasn't there some info given out about the heating effect if using the laptop on your lap for a long period of time?

Lilian

Posted By mike morland
Having read all the comments in this thread, please forgive me if I happen to repeat anything someone has already mentioned.

It's great that the school has the initiative and funding to be able to consider issuing all pupils with a laptop.

However, I can't help think that if anything goes wrong somewhere then the school will be held responsible by either someone in the LEA, HSE or a parent. Remember we live in a world of litigation.

Surely the initiative has to be entered into by all concerned and each has to take some degree of responsibility. The school for educating the child on the potential problems associated with using a laptop. For example: do they know that a laptop should not be used on their lap! It can cause burns. What if the child leaves the laptop on their bed, turned on and unattend - Potential fire?

Oh dear and we haven't even got to the 'sitting correctly' part.

Children do not have the forsight of 'common sense' as it is hoped that this attribute comes with age and experience (or not) and therefore they need to be at least advised.

Perhaps the school could issue the laptops at an evening session where each child is accompanied by an adult/parent who will also be expected to listen to the advice on WRULD. If the parents can't be bothered to take an interest for their own childs safety in order to recieve a 'free' laptop then they shouldn't get one.

Roll on Friday.

With the continued introduction of technology into childrens lives such as MP3 players, mobile phones (text messaging), nintendo's and the likes, along with sitting in the dark with a laptop on the bed then what more can we expect other than a child with poor hearing, arthritis of the thumbs suffering from blinding headaches and serious back problems not to mention over weight and all before they reach mid twenties.

Climbing down from soap box.

Regardless of the Regulations, if the school supplies the laptops then it must take responsibility for any training and advise required.

Posted By Paul Duell
**Regardless of the Regulations, if the school supplies the laptops then it must take responsibility for any training and advise required.** (Mike Morland)

Surely that's the point isn't it? Whether the DSE regs (or any other law) apply or not, isn't there a moral responsibility? And come to that, with the amount that kids are using computers in schools anyway, shouldn't they be getting posture, etc training regardless of whether the get laptops or not?

As far as I know, when I was at primary school, the school didn't have a legal responsibility to tell us about not accepting sweeties from strangers - but they did, because it was a life skill we needed.

Posted By Peter Taylor14
4) Nothing in these Regulations shall apply to or in relation to-
(a) drivers' cabs or control cabs for vehicles or machinery;
(b) display screen equipment on board a means of transport;
(c) display screen equipment mainly intended for public operation;
(d) portable systems not in prolonged use;
(e) calculators, cash registers or any equipment having a small data or measurement display required for direct use of the equipment; or
(f) window typewriters

Does D not apply??

Posted By DRB
Mike, you mentioned that we live in a world of litigation. That's not actually correct. We live in a world of perceived litigation. There's a difference and if you use the former to drive H&S you'll loose sight of the real objectives!

And on that note I'm going home. Good night all!