Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Admin  
#1 Posted : 27 December 2007 18:58:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By MMBS
Hi

Is it just me, or are those running the CHAS and other competence assessment schemes overlooking a number of significant issues? Whilst I may refer to CHAS, the comments also apply to the various other schemes that also exist. I am also not wanting to put these schemes down, but to initiate some discussion about the problems with all such schemes so that hopefully those involved with the schemes can make improvements to them in the future.

Point 1

The good people at CHAS have told me that if a House Building company who acts as the Principal Contractor on a wide variety of CDM projects and only has 4 No. PAYE employees (or directors) and 200 No. (or more) self employed workers who then carry out the works on behalf of the company, then the company only has to apply to CHAS as being a company with less than 4 employees as they only consider PAYE employees. The company then does not need to demonstrate any kind of health and safety systems or procedures or even have their own Health and Safety Policy Statement, let alone all of the other elements that would normally be required.

My question therefore is does everyone think that this is correct, particularly when there are more and more companies around with less than 5 employees, but using large numbers of self employed persons and sub-contractors to do the works for them?

Whilst in comparison, the standards expected by CHAS of a small family run painting and decorating company with 3 full time employees and 2 part time employees who may only carry out small works and never use a sub-contractor is far more extensive and onerous, yet I would suggest that they are working in a far less hazardous environment.

Point 2

CHAS always asks for details of any ‘External Consultants’ that those applying to gain CHAS compliance may use as their safety advisors. I know for a fact, and others have said it before on this forum, that contractors use the names of safety consultancies and advisors that they have no right to use, they may have spoken to someone on one occasion or extracted their details from the internet, but that does not mean that they are acting on behalf of the contractor. This is not my concern, but my concern is that from the discussions I have had with other safety professionals, including some CHAS assessors, is that none of the details of the competent Health and Safety Advisors are ever verified or checked. So a contractor can specify just about whoever he wants.

Does this concern anyone else or is it just me as it would seem such a simple and quick thing for the assessor to do by simply making a 20 second phone call for each assessment?

Point 3

Also does CHAS have a Duty of Care to ensure that the information it is providing via its assessments is correct? and what would happen if a client relied on CHAS for its Stage 1 assessment, only for the contractor to have an accident and for it then to come to light that the contractor had lied on his application form? Would CHAS be liable? Would the individual consultant employed by CHAS be liable? Would the client engaging the contractor be seen to have taken reasonable steps by using a scheme such as CHAS?

All thoughts welcome...
Admin  
#2 Posted : 28 December 2007 14:10:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By GeoffB4
I think it might be better to make it a more general question otherwise JM will be quoting forum rules and regulations.

when you have rephrased it could you include point 4?

Is it right for these types of organisations to view documentation only and not make site visits to see what really goes on?
Admin  
#3 Posted : 30 December 2007 21:00:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Robert K Lewis
It is important to remember that the client, or other employing organisation such as a contractor has the duty to ensure competence. CHAS is a guide and cannot replace proper assessment procedures by the employing organisation.

Bob
Admin  
#4 Posted : 31 December 2007 17:17:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By John Murphy
I thought it might help to provide some explanation about some of the points you raised. (I am pleased I managed it without the need for you to rewrite or rephrase as suggested)!

Point One.
· If you are a safety professional you will be aware that sole traders and those who employ fewer than 5 people are exempt from having their policy and arrangements in writing. I am sure you are aware the CHAS scheme has a questionnaire for those who fall into this category and it is one that contains a statement of intent the sole trader or employer must sign up to. It would or could be anti-competitive for us to insist that someone falling into this category has a written policy etc. our approach also reflects the guidance provided in the CDM ACoP when dealing with sole traders etc.
· Many of the smaller businesses of the type to which you refer do in fact submit full policies and go through a full (five employees or more) assessment because they recognise the need to be able to demonstrate the higher level of compliance. That is their choice.
· CHAS is not and does not purport to be an approved list of competent contractors. CHAS is a tool in the contractor selection process that negates the need for our clients to undertake unnecessary and time-consuming duplicate first stage competency assessments.
· Importantly, (as mentioned by Bob) the client will undertake a second (project or job specific) stage assessment normally at invitation to tender if it is deemed necessary. We have produced guidance for our clients on what is required at the second stage that again effectively follows the guidance in the CDM ACoP. This second stage assessments concentrates on a number of issues including taking up of health and safety (not technical) references, confirming there is continued access to competent advice, cooperation and coordination arrangements and includes an area where the contractor can identify any significant shortfalls in their previous experience or, the risks associated with the project which they have not managed before, and include an explanation of how these shortcomings will be overcome. (Thus not debarring them from the opportunity to do that work for the first time). The level of assessment at this stage is proportionate to the level of risk associated with the job or project.
· The contractor’s page in the database also describes the type of work or works they have applied for and makes available, on line, for client users a copy of the contractors completed questionnaire and the assessor’s findings (There is also other information available to them such as their compliance track record).
· Our assessors are all practising safety professionals trained to the CHAS standards and will always bear in mind, when doing the assessment, the size of the company and the type of work they undertake. We do not apply the same level of expectation for a painting and decorating company employing 5 people as we would for a demolition company employing the same number of people.

You will see from this, any business will be subjected to an appropriate level of assessment for the type of work they do.

Point 2.
You are right in that we do ask for information relating to where a business accesses competent health and safety advice. We rely on a business making an application to us to be open and honest in their replies. We are clear that there are occasions where the business and in some cases their advisers are less than honest and will try to cheat the assessor. However, we do not see it as our role to police the integrity of the vast majority of businesses that are honest in their replies to us.

Importantly, again, because of anti-competition rules we cannot insist at any stage of prequalification that a business must take on the services of a safety consultant for example. The rationale behind our question and the associated standards including how we use this information are described on our web site. (http://www.chas.gov.uk/chas/Downloads/AssessmentStandards.doc) - First page.

If there is any doubt as to access to competent advice then the assessor will check it out with the person or organisation named as their competent advice. (There are many examples of when this has been done). Your judgement that it takes just 20 seconds to check this out is well wide of the mark in my experience.

Point 3.
Of course CHAS and other third party schemes are subject to a duty of care. The CHAS scheme and its assessors are subject to considerable scrutiny including quality control checks. The results of those QC checks are promulgated in the database (in the relevant contractors page) with a three monthly summary report published for clients and assessors in the database.
In addition, a client can call in any assessment for their own audit if they so wish (this must be within 8 weeks of the completed assessment). Finally, a contractor failing their assessment has a right of appeal too.

You identify rightly there is always the potential, for a contractor (or their adviser) to make false statement. Regulation 4 (1)(a) and 4 (1) (b) of CDM are explicit that it is a criminal offence to accept a duty holder (including a contractor) appointment or engagement unless they are competent. ACoP 201 goes on to state, “Doing an assessment requires you to make a judgment as to whether the organisation or individual has the competence to carry out the work safely. If your judgment is reasonable, taking into account the evidence that has been asked for and provided, you will not be criticised if the organisation you appoint subsequently proves not to have been competent to carry out the work.

ACoP 207 also makes clear that “Alternatively, organisations may use an independent accreditation organisation to assess their competence against the elements of the core criteria. Where this route is adopted, both clients (with the help of the CDM coordinator for notifiable projects) and organisations putting themselves forward for assessment should satisfy themselves that the accreditation body is using the criteria in Appendix 4 as a basis for the assessment, and that the assessment process is robust enough to give the assurance necessary to ensure compliance. Relevant trade associations should be able to advise you on which schemes are suitable”.

Forgive the verbatim extracts but I think it is important this is in context.

Point 4. Though not made by you, but valid all the same.
The HSE and industry generally, not just the construction industry, were very widely consulted on CDM 2007. It is they who came to the conclusion that, when assessing health and safety competence there should be no requirement to carry out site-based assessments as part of the stage 1 (or stage 2 for that matter) assessment.

Personally I agree with this view because of the resource implication and cost, especially the cost for the sole trader and smaller contractors. Importantly it is something our 300 client users and the schemes national management board also agree with. The cost benefit of a site-based assessment is minimal because they are so expensive to undertake. When and if they are needed they should, in my opinion, be undertaken by the client after the short-listing process.

I hope this has helped to clarify some of the points you have raised. There will always be a difference of opinions on assessing competence but what we believe we have achieved in our scheme is an acceptable level of assessment (for the first stage) that more than 300 client users accept as appropriate. It is acceptable to them because they accept two fundamental principles of our scheme, the first that we will help small businesses who might fail to achieve compliance while at the same time avoiding unnecessary and costly duplication for both contractors aned clients.

Regards

John
Admin  
#5 Posted : 07 January 2008 17:24:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By GeoffB4
John Murphy - many thanks for the significant response which explains the rationale behind your particular scheme - and my support for most of the points.

The only comments I have concerns point 4 - and I hope will be seen as constructive observatons and not criticisms.

1) In an industry with such a high fatality/injury rate, 'should' the cost of site visits be the quoted most important reason for not carrying them out.

2) I don't consider your clients to be the best judges of whether site visits should be carried out - for obvious reasons.

3) Not quite the same thing but I regularly carry out inspections for clients working on sites - I see the improvements the inspections make and the gradual culture change when operatives finally realise what's said is meant. Imagine now these inspections were from an outside agency such as CHAS and had to be shown to prospective clients - it's a win win situation for CHAS and the client, if they get it right.
Admin  
#6 Posted : 07 January 2008 17:59:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By GeoffB4
"The HSE and industry generally, not just the construction industry, were very widely consulted on CDM 2007. It is they who came to the conclusion that, when assessing health and safety competence there should be no requirement to carry out site-based assessments as part of the stage 1 (or stage 2 for that matter) assessment."

John, a favour if you would. Could you point me in the direction of the consultation talks that decided there should be no requiremenent for on site inspections. I'd like to see the stated reasons (and by whom) for not implementing checks that I personally would see as being a mandatory requirement.

Geoff
Admin  
#7 Posted : 07 January 2008 18:01:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By John Murphy
Geoff

I do actually agree that the site visits are important (in high risk works they are essential) and that is my point. A single site visit from CHAS as part of pre-qualification is no substitute for regular structured site visits from the client or the clients consultants and these should be targeted and supportive.

Too frequently a contractor will quote for work saying they will use scaffold but come the job, up goes the ladders. The best way to monitor this and ensure it is through the client.

Forgive me but I don't see any obvious reasons why our clients should not be able to best judge when site visits and monitoring are required. Have you looked at our client list?

If you are suggesting smaller clients like housing associations or district councils for example might not I could agree. However, as a scheme we do the prequalification and educate the our clients about the need for second stage assessments and site audits. (We provide the tools for them to be able to it too).

Regards

John

Admin  
#8 Posted : 07 January 2008 19:49:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By GeoffB4
Unfortunately John, as a non-member, I'm unable to access your listed contractors so I cannot check our inspections records against your member list.

The reason I used the word obvious when referring to inspections is simply because I think it is.

A contractor is not going to volunteer for external inspections if there is a further cost implication - that's one reason for not wanting them. Another is that any items needing remedial action would be a cost to be met, and thirdly a substantial number of companies know they are simply not complying.

I'm going to give you three examples of the latter - I have no means of knowing if these contractors are on your list or not.

A major housebuilder a member of the MCG is employing non CSCS card trades on the grounds that they wouldn't get any houses built if they stuck to that rule. Yet it is one of their own rules and introduced to improve safety on sites!

Another one, again a MCG member, had not put arrangements in place to man a level crossing to the site - the site agent wasn't even aware he should have, yet the H&S Plan clearly showed the requirement.

And finally, a client working for a prestigious major company on a multi multi million pound project asked us to carry out an inspection as they were unhappy with the conditions. We pointed out in the report there was no proper signage on haul roads of various heights adjoing each other, inadequate lighting, no edge signage and no pedestrian segregation - all of which was the responsibility of the Main Contractor. You can guess the response of the MC.

I see failures on sites all the time but I can only try to improve it on our client sites. CHAS could do so much more on many more sites if minded to.

Geoff



Admin  
#9 Posted : 08 January 2008 16:42:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By John Murphy
Geoff

You can access a list of our members (client users) from our website at http://www.chas.gov.uk/MemSubs.asp. here you will see members such Alfred McAlpine, Morrisons, Multiplex amongst very construction active councils like Fife and Highlands not to mention Barnsley, Lancashire, Merton and many others. (with apologies to the other capable members from the 300+ not mentioned here)!

Hence the question as these organisations are more than capable of identifying if and when they want site inspections to be underatken and indeed have the wherewithal to do them. These organisations can and do site based assessments and they are in my opinion, better placed than CHAS to do them.

It seems to me you are confusing members and contractors.

Regards

John
Admin  
#10 Posted : 08 January 2008 16:52:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By GeoffB4
I don't think I am John, CHAS (and similar organisations) approve contractors (at a cost) and that is what this thread is about. My point is that a contractor cannot be properly approved unless a site inspection is carried out - to show theory is put into practice.

You haven't answered my question: Could you point me in the direction of the consultation talks that decided there should be no requiremenent for on site inspections. I'd like to see the stated reasons (and by whom) for not implementing checks that I personally would see as being a mandatory requirement.

Thanks

Admin  
#11 Posted : 08 January 2008 18:03:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By John Murphy
It is clear you are expressing your strongly held opinion that the competence assessment should include site based audits. Nothing I can say is going to change that.

As far as our scheme is concerned its members will continue to use the CDM ACoP, the CONIAC industry guidance and the "core criteria" for assessing competence. We will not be doing site based assessments as part of prequalification unless the ACoP and associated industry guidance are amended to reflect that requirement - don't hold your breath!

I think we have now exhausted this subject.

John
Admin  
#12 Posted : 08 January 2008 19:48:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By GeoffB4
I've put forward good reasons for site inspections of your approved contractors. These are good solid reasons which would help to improve safety on building sites and I'm surprised you cannot see the advantages it would bring. It is clear that nothing I can say will alter your opinion or even consider the benefits.

However this is not quite exhaused as you did say this topic has been discussed at high level (see below) and that the idea of carrying out inspections as a check on competence has been dismissed. I would like to see evidence of those discussions.

JM Quote: "The HSE and industry generally, not just the construction industry, were very widely consulted on CDM 2007. It is they who came to the conclusion that, when assessing health and safety competence there should be no requirement to carry out site-based assessments as part of the stage 1 (or stage 2 for that matter) assessment."

Could you provide the reference leading me to those discussions so that I can see who said what, and the rationale behind it.

Thanks
Admin  
#13 Posted : 08 January 2008 20:47:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Mike Mathews 08
It seems a shame that there is an air around parts of this (and previous) discussions where IOSH Members are too ‘worried’ to be seen as criticising or passing comment on what should be an organic – and constantly developing assessment scheme that should be open, to discussion, by professionals who could actually contribute positively towards developing the scheme and with those same professionals seeing the benefits and any potential pitfalls. As a government backed scheme, funded largely by the private organisations and individuals that are being assessed, the CHAS (and other) schemes should be open without redress or suggestions that it would breach IOSH acceptable use guidelines.

Come on – lets be honest – for the majority of contractors that are looking to get CHAS accredited (from my experience) it is a process that they have to go through as opposed to any sudden new-found commitment to health & safety and considering this, and knowing this, it is imperative that CHAS and in fact any other assessment scheme should be ensuring that they do make sure that their assessments are thorough, and do not leave it up to the contractor being assessed to be ‘honest’ and tell nothing but the truth in their application – after all, the number of calls that I have had with regards to CHAS where the contractor has a gun to his head and has been told that he is either CHAS accredited by whatever date or he is off site – doesn’t encourage honesty or openness but usually resentment, particularly when they may have been working with the client for over 20 years. Also there would be no value to any scheme where the information such as access to competent advice is taken at face value – I am sure that any local authorities and in fact any Principal Contractors that use CHAS as their bench-mark would also assume that reasonable checks have been made and that it is not left up to the integrity of the applicant whose exclusive objective is to stay on-site or get onto a tender list.

In response to Bob – I do not believe that the local authorities that use the CHAS Scheme or in fact any other scheme that they may be subscribing to, would reassess what has already, in their opinion, been assessed, and despite what John has indicated about providing the tools and information to their clients I have never known a Local Authority to carry out any additional competence checks – what about everyone else?

Most client organisations who use CHAS and similar schemes as a prerequisite to providing work to a contractor, do so to demonstrate that they are taking steps to discharge their duties with regards to assessing the competence of the contractors that they are using and although they should make further checks – this I would suggest is extremely rare as most authorities see the CHAS assessment schemes as providing them with ‘contractors who comply all the necessary health and safety requirements’. After all, the only calls I have ever received to check whether I am acting as the contractors competent advisor is from organisations that undertake their own competence assessments. I have categorically never received a call from a CHAS assessor or any local authority despite being aware that many contractors that I am acting for, have been through the CHAS process and are working on local authority contracts! Worse still I am sure that many organisations use my own and my organisations details without my knowledge or approval, when applying for CHAS. I am also aware of a former local authority procurement officer with no health and safety training who allegedly provides competent advice to those seeking CHAS registration.

So following John’s comments:

“However, we do not see it as our role to police the integrity of the vast majority of businesses that are honest in their replies to us.”

How would you know that the vast majority of your businesses are honest? As previously mentioned those applying for CHAS, in my experience, aren’t usually willing to undertake a costly assessment, but due to a stipulated requirement specified to stay on site or win work. It is not CHAS or any other assessment schemes responsibility to ‘police’ – but it is the responsibility of any organisation who has agreed to make an assessment for a client (which may be a local authority) to ensure that this information is correct as far as practicable and that the assessment is made as fully as possible. I have a large contractor that I undertake assessments for and my objective is to ensure that any subcontractors are legally-compliant at the very minimum and I do call any and all declared ‘competent advisors’ and have equally come across contractors that have looked on the internet and picked a name, others that have downloaded CVs from recruitment type sites and others that genuinely do have access to competent advice. These are the same contractors that may/have applied and successfully achieved CHAS status – although have not achieved or passed my contractors assessment criteria. The minute or so that it takes to make a phone call is insightful and retrospectively gives you a clearer understanding of the applicant/contractors being assessed.

I go back to my original point which I do not feel has been addressed where a sole trader or partnership that applies to CHAS for a less than 5 employees application effectively has to have no written documentation, policies or procedures in place, other than some example risk assessments which could come from anywhere, in addition they can and many do employ 20, 50 or 100 or more sub-contractors to work for them under such undocumented systems and gain approval from such competence schemes. It seems a little insane to say the least – this is an issue for competence assessment schemes but also for the HSE and maybe regulating further the requirements for less than 5.

With regards to the requirements for site visits - the onus has to be on the contractor/client as a snap-shot or a bag of promises by the site manager that things will be done has little weight unless the correct attitude is there, after all we have all seen sites being tidied up and pulled into shape the day before an audit.

All I'm looking for is for CHAS and others to apply a little 'Due Diligence' to the process.
Admin  
#14 Posted : 09 January 2008 10:36:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By R Joe
Achilles Verify apply a little 'due diligence' through site audits to test / supplement the paperwork assessment. How does this compare?
Admin  
#15 Posted : 10 January 2008 12:49:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By GeoffB4
I broadly agree with Mike about the transparency of these types of schemes (or lack of it?). It would be interesting to see if there was a mechanism for suggestions by external parties to improve these schemes and if so just how many of the suggestions have been reviewed and incorporated.


Admin  
#16 Posted : 19 January 2008 10:38:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By GeoffB4
Am I wrong?

A contributor to this thread, to help reinforce his point of view, has said:

"The HSE and industry generally, not just the construction industry, were very widely consulted on CDM 2007. It is they who came to the conclusion that, when assessing health and safety competence there should be no requirement to carry out site-based assessments as part of the stage 1 (or stage 2 for that matter) assessment."

Should contributors be obliged to provide sources of reference or am I wrong in pursuing this?

Admin  
#17 Posted : 20 January 2008 17:41:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By John Murphy
I expect the vast majority of people who had any interest in CDM will recall not only the J Z Carpenter review report (RR422) but also the huge amount of exchanges that took place on the Consultation Forum on a raft of CDM issues. For anyone so minded the report and discussions can be found on HSE's web site.

At the competency conclusions and commentary section in his report (rr422) John Carpenter concluded "To ensure that assessment schemes meet and retain an adequate standard, and that
membership does not become primarily dependent upon a form filling exercise, these
schemes should be accredited and involve a site/office audit of the applicant (audits are
recommended by OGC in Appendix 6)58. Some of the existing industry schemes meet these criteria at present. From the views expressed during the study it is concluded that self
certification of competency is not appropriate at this time although it should not be ruled out for the future or in very specific instances".

It is a reasonable and logical conclusion that the HSC in particular having looked at the recommendations in this report clearly concluded that site audits were not needed or appropriate at stage 1 or 2 in the competence assessment simply because they have not included them in the CDM ACoP. CONIAC also, in their industry guidance, make no mention of site audits as part of the competency assessment.


Admin  
#18 Posted : 21 January 2008 08:42:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By GeoffB4
Thank you John, as you know I'd hoped for a more detailed reference as you had indicated it was such a clear cut decision. I would have liked to see the reasoning behind not having site audits on these types of competence schemes other than it coming down (as you mentioned) purely to cost.

Users browsing this topic
Guest (2)
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.