Posted By GeoffB4
How on earth can you blame the media for the horrific death of a child through scalding?

More to the point who is going to prosecute the HSE for their inaction in this case?

Posted By db
I don't know too much about the causes etc. of this but is one incident enough to suggest a major problem with all of these thermostats? Or is there more to it?

Posted By Brigham
The HSE knew of this problem because a similar system had exploded. They took no real action apart from sending round a memo.
Now if this is roughly true and you put the boot on the other foot, how do you think the HSE would react to a similar sort of scenario in the workplace if you, as the safety manager said to them "well I knew it happened elsewhere and it could happen here but I only mentioned it in the passing to my boss but didn't think it that important?"
Of course the HSE are to blame for not raising this issue and to say that they didn't want to scaremonger beggars belief. I'd like to see you using that one in court as the HSE prosecute you! There again, you could always blame the press for over-reacting to "elf & safety"

Posted By db
Hang on though, are they to blame per se? Isn't the council getting off scot free when they say that "nobody told us to check thermostats that were 30 years old and anyway we didnt have ladders" and probably couildnt use them because HSE have banned ladders no doubt.

Come on. Proper routine maintenance is required. These types of problems have warning signs a long time before a catastrophic incident like this - warm weater in the cold taps, noises in the system etc. - which the council has admitted was the system used to highlight problems. The tragedy is that this family had just moved into the house and may not have been aware of them.

Is HSE at fault for not producing a safety alert? Yes. Are they to blame for this incident? Definitely not. It is the council's duty to ensure maintenance is carried out.

It cannot be compared to the scenario above;
"how do you think the HSE would react to a similar sort of scenario in the workplace if you, as the safety manager said to them "well I knew it happened elsewhere and it could happen here but I only mentioned it in the passing to my boss but didn't think it that important?"

That's the whole point - HSE is not in control. They were wrong but what will you prosecute them under? Section 3? How can you prove that even if they did tell the council that they would have taken the decision to change all thermostats? Have all council's done this since the day the accident happened? I don't think so.

Posted By J Knight
Brigham,

It was HSE themselves who said they didn't want to raise the issue for fear of being accused of scaremongering. And you can't compare the HSE's public face with their approach in private as a regulator. If your firm, or mine, was to be caught bang to rights in a flagrant breach, they would go for us essentially in private. This aspect of their work, the life-saving bit, is, as has been pointed about above, something the press never ever talks about. So we have a social climate where H&S is publicly ridiculed. The public arena is the political arena. There is a concerted and sustained attack on HSE from right wing commentators like Richard Littlejohn and Jeremy Clarkson, and the fruits of this attack are beginning to show. HSE is becoming wary about discharging its public duty. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Of course they should have acted, and some of the blame is theirs, but I for one can't ignore what's happening in a wider political arena,

John

Posted By db
Brigham
Please keep your insults to yourself. This forum is for opinions and I did not suggest your opinion was cbblrs just because it was different to mine.

I didn't blame the media at all. My point is the duty to carry out maintenance is with the council and not HSE. I can tell you for a fact that not every council has gone out and changed every single thermostat in every single property as a result of this incident.

The council in question had a reactive policy - would that have changed if there was a safety alert? Possibly. Would they have changed every single thermostat? Probably not, or it would have taken time if they did plan to - they would still have relied upon the householder to tell them about problems. Would routine maintenance on this one paricular house have resulted in the problem being fixed? Who knows? That would depend on the time between maintenance checks and whether it shows signs of failing for some time before a catastrophic event.

Either way, HSE is not culpable for the incident. Was there a failing on the part of HSE? Yes there probably was but was there any evidence from one incident that there was a problem in every single thermostat? No-one, other than those close to the investigation can say for sure. HSE comes across many incidents -do you put out an alert for all of them? As a result of one accident in .. how many homes are there in the country.. how long have thermostats been used?

This is taking the press quite nicely off the council - lets blame the media, lets blame the government. Who had the duty for maintenance in the house?

Posted By Brigham
DB
I wasn't insulting you, I have no need to.

Thanks

Posted By Stupendous Man
Responsibility for this sad incident lies fimly at the door of the local authority. Relying on a reactive maintenance regime is simply not god enough.

Was the HSE wrong not to put out an altert following the previous incident? I'm not so sure - can you imagine how much paperwork would be flying around if the HSE reported all issues of this nature based on one occurrence?

We say that the HSE should have done something with the benefit of hindsight - which is very easy to do.

Posted By Chris Ivan
with regards to the media, its an unpleasant irony that last year record numbers of journalists were killed across the world in the line of their reporting duties (c250 i believe), so you would think that they might change their attitudes!

anyway, my tuppence worth thrown in.

Posted By holmezy

I've read, with interest, the points and comments made on this thread and have decided to jump in with my tuppence worth.

Firstly, the boiler didnt explode. The hot water in this case was generated via an immersion heater in a calorifier, (or hot water cylinder). The thermostat on the immersion heater developed a fault which caused the water in the calorifier to keep boiling which then produced steam, initially and then a volume of 100+ degrees water to be forced up the expansion pipe and into the cold water header tank. As the hot water is expelled, it is replaced by water from the header tank. There may even be ingress of fresh cold water to the system via the ball valve to replace the water lost in steam. This cycle then continues, due to the thermostat being continually "on" until the boiling water and potetially superheated steam in the header tank expands so much that the overflow on the header tank cannot remove the water quicker than it is being introduced to the system and hence the tank will then overflow, and depending on the design (plastic) age and condition of the tank, may cause the tank to distort or "melt". The end result is boiling water escaping from the header tank and soaking the ceiling below and eventually breaking through.
Secondly, this has happened many times before, not only in council homes but private homes. (I know from my previous life as a plumber) and usually the water drips through the bathroom ceiling during the night and harms no one. As it was at night and in the bathroom, no one got hurt.

Unfortunately, on this occasion, and a previous occasion involving a young woman, the water tank was positioned over a bedroom. The baby was, (I think) in a cot and as such couldn't escape, although I would think that a sudden deluge of boiling water would render infant either in shock or death, both of which would be rapid.

It is an extremely unfortunate accident, with extreme consequencies, but is it the HSE's fault? I don't think so. Should they have warned the council(s) or raised their concerns? possibly. Would or did the councils take any action on checking the thermostats out in the 1000's of properties? Probably not. You can go and check a thermostat every day of the year, but when it fails, it fails. Its a bit like a light bulb, it either works or doesnt. Nowadays, most, if not all thermostats should fail to safety (???), but there must be thousands out in the homes of council tenants and private tenants that "may" fail to danger, ie "on", I know my kettle boiled dry when it failed.
My point after all this, is why do we have to look for someone to blame? By all means establish the cause. We could potentially blame designers, builders, plumbers etc for siting a header tank over a bedroom, we could blame the thermostat manufacturers, where do we stop? The press make a living out of blaming people, surely we should be better than them at least?
So we now all know about the potentially low liklihood that we all may have a potentially rogue thermostat on a potentially rogue immersion heater that may fail to danger with potentially fatal consequencies. As people keep telling us, do the risk assessment! Are we all going to go home a check the thermostat tonight, the position of the header tanker, position of the beds etc. I think not. And if you are going to check it, what and how are you going to check? And how often?

(Steps down of soap box and retires quietly to the corner of the room, fully expecting to be lambasted by someone shortly......)

Thanks for listening though..

Holmezy

Sod the diet, tonight I'm having a pint or two of the most calorie laden ale I can find.

Posted By holmezy
Colin,

I think you have just para-phrased my posting?

I take it that you agree?

Holmezy

Pedigree is probably favourite, but Bass stands a fair chance!

Posted By Tony abc jprhdnMurphy
Holmezy

The blame in this case is justified. You gave a thorough account of this tale and I for one feel strongly that the positioning of any vessel which may overflow, particularly as it contained a hazardous substance(boiling water) should not have been over an area where people may sleep. what was wrong with a stairwell?

Once again, poor planning leading to a failure in the system

Posted By holmezy
Tony ,Pete,

I still dont accept that blame is justified, even in this case. There must be millions of homes that have a "cold" water header tank over a bedroom, and the chances of the fault occurring and all the other factors being present are "millions to one". If you were to assess any other activity and come up with such a liklehood then it would be low risk. By all means suggest to householders to check the thermstats, but for what? and would they know what they were looking for if it was at fault? Commission "Plumbers R us" to sweep the country and check every household, but at what cost? Would that be reasonably practicable?
As for what we should do to stop it happenning again, well we perhaps need to lobby parliament to get the building regs changed? Enforce building inspectors to check every new build? Its not going to happen!!
As I said in my previous post, as an ex plumber, I know that it happens far moor often than the 2 cases highlighted on this occasion but it still is a low risk. I know its sad, and the parents quite rightly want closure or blame apportioned, I understand that, however its also very sad every time a child steps off the pavement and gets hit by a car (which incidentally happens at a far greater rate than thermostats failing), but we dont call for every road to be barriered off, cars to go at 4mph, front ends of cars to be made of sponge etc etc. Its not reasonably practicable to do, nor is it RP to check or change every thermostat. The HSE were not the only ones to know about the possible fault. Councils knew, householders knew, thermostat suppliers knew, even coroners knew.Its not the remit of the HSE to police private or council tenants. Perhaps no one was to blame, perhaps it was a genuine oversight? Perhaps no one is right and no one is wrong?
Exactly what do you suggest we do to stop it re-occuring? Councils may now take the decision to change every thermosat in every council house, all at a cost, but what about private householders?
Answers on a postcard.

Holmezy

Hic....here goes another one!!

Posted By Mitch
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pr...=hsegen/14-jan-2008&cr=7

Posted By Colin Reeves
Will

"Where do people get the idea that hot water coming through the cold taps would act as a warning? Most peoples cold water comes straight from mains and has nothing to do with the hot water header tank."

This may be the case in more modern houses, but the vast majority of houses were built under older rules where only the kitchen tap was connected to the rising main, with all other cold taps being fed from the header tank in the attic - the same header tank that collects the overflow from the hot water tank.

In this particular case, the cold taps in the house WERE producing hot water. However, cannot blame the parents as it was their first day in the house and they will have had other matters on their mind to wonder why hot water was coming out of the tap.

Colin