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Posted By Sarah Sahc Hi All, I know that this has been raised before (November 07) but for all of those that don't know - The Department for Business & Enterprise and regulatory reform - Improving Outcomes from Health & Safety: A call for evidence - is asking anybody for any feedback on any way of improving Health & Safety within the UK. Feedback in by the 31st January 2008. I have taken the opportunity to suggest that H&S consultants need to be far better regulated to prevent unqualified persons providing poor-quality H&S advice to employers and business owners. I also copied the letter to my local MPs asking that they sign up to the EDM - I would urge anyone with an interest in professionalising the 'profession' to respond to the call for evidence and email Ben Davidson at the Better Regulation Executive to express your views. For some reason I saw this as a priority as I feel the situation that we have spent a week discussing (Regulation of our profession - thread) will only get worse. Have a look at the following link and as the document says don't feel constrained just to answer the questions - I didn't, as you can imagine! It may be worth it!! http://bre.berr.gov.uk/r...bre_review_hs_071127.pdf
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Posted By David Bramall
Sarah
Whilst I dont doubt your professionalism, Im afraid I do sometimes doubt the professionalism of other "H&S Professionals". We have young graduates, school leavers and the like coming into health and safety and I sometimes wonder if it is a profession or a well paid job - attracts people who are not necessarily dedicated to the cause.
In short, I strongly believe that a dedicated professional in any profession who can demonstrate a sound knowledge in health and safety (ither by experience or by study) is more useful than an undedicated individual who can show a list of qualifications but no sound experience.
If you still believe that health and safety is a profession, I wish you the best of luck in your pursuits. Personally I see it as a vocation more than a profession.
Regards
David
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Posted By Dave Merchant
As I regularly heard amongst medical students:-
"This should be a vocation, but on these wages I can only afford it to be a job"
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Posted By Sarah Sahc
Hi David,
I have to agree with you to a point - but at the same time school-leavers and the like have to start from somewhere, and individuals have different motivations for coming into the profession - and a lot of the less competent ones are definately in it for the money I am sure.
I disagree with your point that is is questionable as to whether it is a profession - of course it is a profession as opposed to a vocation - A vocation is more for altruistic benefit then for income. I tell you what you come and work for me vocationally - can't stand all of those qualified people expecting pay and all - and holidays! Next thing they will want is sick leave to pursue a vocation in saving lives in poverty stricken areas or something.
What the profession needs is boundaries and clear guidelines which is communicated to the end user - You only have to look at the thread "Acceptable for Hotel??" to really see the problems with the profession and in fact industry!
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Posted By Steve Cartwright
Sarah
I'm with you on this one. The thread you have highlighted is a perfect example of what we are up against.
A vocation is a strong wish to do a particular job or a profession.
Steve
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
Sarah
I personally do not have a real issue with a few isolated 'cowboys' who offer h&s services without the commensurate knowledge or qualifications. Any proper employer would check the legitimacy of someone they are employing or engaging.
As for the EDM all well and good. However, there are many more safety related issues that I would prefer parliament to address before this particular one.
Regards
Ray
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Posted By Sarah Sahc Hi Ray, Well it attitudes like this and to a certain extent the government's that is endangering people's lives. I trust that you have the same opinion when you see your GP, well he might be one of your isolated 'cowboys', or do you have the same attitude when you send kids off to school - well the school probably did a police check on the teacher ah! Or are you relying on the Teacher Reference Number which is linked to the GTC central database, which in turn details the level of competence the teacher has, the most recent appointment and the age range that they can teach. In other words it validates them to a greater extent that they know what they are doing and are likely not to put yours or other children at risk. Yes the Local Education Department, as an employer, would call the GTC to check the teacher they are interviewing is qualified and they would also speak to the last school appointment head-teacher of education department - we are fairly safe there then....... I guess however the bloke that owns the hotel at the following link: http://www.iosh.co.uk/in...um=1&thread=33259&page=1has NO clue about how competent his appointed H&S/Fire assessor is - in fact the number of hotels that have burnt to the ground has probably prompted his need to get an assessment done - I hope that you are not staying in that hotel if it ever does burn down, as your attitude may change somewhat. I reiterate that attitudes such as this could be attributed to innocent lives being taken because of the innocent uninformed ignorance of "A proper employer" - I think this hotel owner probably represent the majority of employers!
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Posted By Andrew Lochlyn Ure
Sarah
While I don't disagree in principle with the point you make I would suggest you exercise caution before using other threads on this forum to validate your argument.
Please remember that this is a public forum used by an increasing number of folk working in safety related jobs outside of the UK. While I am not sure the thread you are quoting has originated from one of our international colleagues, it may have done; whichever, it was posted honestly and in good faith by someone looking for help who wouldn't expect, and doesn't deserve, for their contribution to be put forward by another forum user as a perceived example of a system weakness.
I am sure you will find many who agree with you without resorting to quoting other forum users postings to suit your context.
Andrew
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Posted By Sarah Sahc
Hi Andrew,
It was an excellent and timely example to support the point being made, and as you say it is a public forum and the information is available to all.
It is somewhat disappointing when on the one-hand Ray is endorsing that he does not see a problem with H&S 'cowboys' - a good message to send out in a public forum, and on the other, you are indicating that the thread may not have originated from the UK. Well we are alright then! It is not acceptable whether this individual is UK based or the wider world I agree many that have followed the thread may well agree with me and many may not - it depends who is reading it and what their interpretation is of it. However, a search on this guys user name would soon expose him as a UK resident where one respondent in a previous thread said "sub the job ... it appears that you may not be competent and people's lives are at stake." He lives in Essex - It is very interesting reading.
It will result, as it has on the thread in question, others making 'hit and miss' suggestions, which are not necessarily accurate and entirely inappropriate when the information about the premises is so limited. I appreciate that this forum is used for technical queries or clarification on issues that are not clear in say the ACOP, but using the forum to seek this level of support is, in my opinion, not acceptable and they have not 'contributed' to the forum but further exposed the profession as Ray has endorsed.
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Until we get real and I do mean real control on persons who claim to be H&S consultants / advisors / professionals etc and this can only be a good thing, I would support any initiative which leads to this.
Did you know that you are more likely to die at work in the UK than in Iraq / Afghanistan! That cant be right, although not the fault of UK H&S People, but employers, however if they are getting duff advice then employees safety & health is at risk.
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Posted By Jane Blunt
Could you substantiate that statement Dave, with some figures?
e.g. number of deaths as a fraction of the working population or working hours?
Jane
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Posted By Sarah Sahc
Andrew,
I suggest that make a simple search of the forum before making any rash assumptions.
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Posted By Dave Wilson
It was on BBC Radio 5 last week
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
Aah, then it must be true...
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Posted By Dave Wilson
I think it was more along the lines of there have been more people killed in the UK at work than in the Military.
So probably my statement was 'statistically' not correct as there are more workers than people serving in Iraq / Afghanistan.
However its still more maybe not 'statistically more!
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