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Posted By Tracey Kelly
I usually dip in and out of these forums, and like to be able to participate occasionally - both to ask for advice or information and to give it. I am also a member of several other web forums, and unfortunately sometimes, like this week, I see some "poster bashing". I understand that when you respond to a post it isn't personal, but can I please ask participants to imagine the following:-
Think of the poster of the thread as a colleague who has come to your desk to ask for some advice or information. Unless you are having a particularly bad day, you would probably not bite their head off, but point them in the direction of sources of information and guidance. If you think that they are not capable of doing what they are trying to do, then you would point this out tactfully, by helping them to look for training, further reading etc. In real life you would probably also invite them to assist you with a similar task to show them how it is done.
I have over 20 years of experience and three degrees, but I still ask colleagues and mentors "daft questions", and thankfully they always react helpfully. I would hate to think that anyone was afraid to post a query in case they were told online that they aren't up to it. What's worse, someone asking for help when they realise that they need it, or that person carrying on doing a substandard job?
Sorry for the Friday morning rant, but I felt that it needed to be said.
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Posted By MT
Very well said. I also didn't like seeing others on the forum being accused of posting nonsense, when they had come here to ask a perfectly reasonable question.
I agree that people often type responses which they would never actually say to the face of a person stood in front of them, whereas the degree of anonymity on internet forums in general seems to encourage rudeness in some.
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Posted By Steve j B
Tracey & MT
I agree wholeheartedly with both of you. Part of being competent is knowing your own limits and endevouring to find answers, surely that leads us to continual development, doesn't it?
Not to forget that we all have times when we think we are correct in what we are saying or doing but would like assurance from a peer.
If i am asked for advice i will always try and give it to the best of my ability, if i don't know the answer i will try and find out and may well ask someone else.
I tend to think that some people think they are better than the rest of us mortals and exercise their superiority by 'bashing posters' who sometimes ask basic questions. We all had to start somewhere. Please remember nobody knows everything!!
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
I think original posters also have a responsibility to their readers. If they hide the real background of their posting or ask questions in a way that can be misinterpreted or it is otherwise in some way misleading then they may get some strange answers.
Most people do not set out to be rude, original posters can help the process of discussion by giving full information if they are asking a question. It is never my intention to be rude but to give honest answers/suggestions whether or not it may be hard to accept.
Bob
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Posted By mike morland
A refreshing post for a Friday in my view.
Being a regular viewer of this forum with a hope to being further educated and perhaps hoping to help educate others (both from experience and academia) I sometimes get the feeling (from comments made) that there are those out there who would prefer an elitist forum.
Such a shame really and perhaps a little narrow minded of those with such intellect.
Have a great weekend.
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Posted By Rory Duffy
Tracey, Thanks for putting it so well. I posted some stuff recently and some people were coming back with undermining silly statements that only function to let the "poster" feel that they don't want to partake any more. These people should think about it the way you have described. If they feel out of their depth with the subject but feel that the have to say something, then make it a contribution to the subject instead of something that takes away from it. Thanks for bringing this subject up.
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Posted By PH
Very good point.
I have worked in H&S since 1994 and while there have been significant developments in the profession I still regularly come across a lot of arrogance and 'know alls'. Not sure why this is, but as my Nan used to say 'If you can't say anything nice, don't bother saying it at all.' Constructive, mature debate is fantastic - puerile pseudo intellectual sniping does nothing but damage our image.
Cheers, P.
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Posted By AlisonSM
It's not just those that respond to a query as sometimes the person who posts the question can be a bit snippy as well.
I responded to a query and the poster said "I'd missed the point" - even though the advice given was correct IMHO for the information provided. That person had asked for advice, I'd given some but myself and a few others who responded were made to feel stupid for trying to be helpful..
[most though are really lovely though and appreciate the help you are trying to give them]
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Posted By Pete48
Hi Tracey, a good thread subject to which i offer this view.
Context and perception are not easy in this virtual dimension. For oppression or put down to succeed, there have to be willing "victims". Yeh, I know that simplifies it a bit but hopefully demonstrates a position adequately.
I honestly believe that the vast majority of regular posters to this public forum are decent honest people who enjoy coming here.
We will all occasionally suffer from our lack of ability in the written form of our native language and we will all have bad days when we just dismiss people (and that happens in the real world as well).
So,if one can approach this forum from the standpoint that those difficulties exist and that the culture is one of free, open but supportive debate and exchange, it is perfectly possible not to take offence at anything written here.
On the other hand, one can choose to find any post elitist, patronising, judgemental or any other negative emotion you wish to select. As a poster I cannot control that response, only you can. For example, one view says that someone is elitist because they are CMIOSH and the next one discriminates against those who are CMIOSH simply because they are. Don't you just love the human race?
Now, if anyone out there has never inadvertently upset someone when you never intended to do so, I can provide some training for you on how to do it; based on real life experience of course:):)
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Posted By Tracey Kelly
I'm enjoying reading the various responses.
I agree totally that it's very easy to inadvertently give or take offence where it isn't intended - that's why my e-mail is set to only send/receive manually - to give me time to realise that perhaps I should re-draft my response! For the same reason I always make full use of the "preview response" button when posting.
I recall seeing something somewhere about e-mail etiquette - especially important with forums like this where individuals are from all parts of the world, every sector and every experience/knowledge level. Some internet forums have rules about the titles of postings, which help responders to understand the basis of the post. For example, here it could be required for you to state if your question is just out of interest, for academic enquiry or for a live problem; where in the world you are posting from etc. .. just a thought
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Posted By Steve Cartwright
Tracey
When asking a question on an open forumn posters may not like the answers they get. If they have taken on a task that is beyond their capabilities and then ask how it should be done on this forumn then I think we have a moral duty to question whether they should be carrying out the said task, especially if they may be putting lives at risk. If that is seen as elitism well? Sometimes the truth hurts.
Sometimes its better to let people think you are a fool rather than open your mouth and let them know.
Steve
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Posted By Tracey Kelly
I don't want to get into a ping-pong session, but it IS Friday.....
There are many ways of helping someone to recognise their lack of ability or knowledge without being rude about it (not that I'm saying that you personally have been rude). Just because someone asks a "daft" question doesn't mean that they are incompetent for the task in question - just that they have recognised that there something they don't know and are asking their peers for some assistance. Although cynical by nature, I try to think the best of (most) people - that they will learn from reading the guidance and advice given and look for further training or assistance as required.
Yes! we can point out that there is a lot to know about the particular risk or issue that the poster isn't exhibiting in their post.
Yes! we may privately think sometimes that they are being lazy by asking us rather than searching the Barbour Index, HSE website or even Google.
Yes! I have in the past typed up pretty curt retorts to posters (in full teacher mode), but with a little thought and consideration we can re-phrase the response such that we aren't seen to be questioning their competence on the evidence of them asking one question!
My physics teacher at school said that the only stupid question was that which was not asked...and I would sleep better at night thinking that I had led a fellow safety practitioner to decent sources of training, guidance, information or advice, rather than scared them into silence - reading the threads in the hope that someone else has been brave enough to ask the question that they need to know the answer to, ignorant of the wealth of information out there that they can access for their current and future needs.
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Posted By Adam Worth
I just want to add -
Too many people email responses instead of posting. Are they afraid of the reception they may get?
Some of the emails I have received have been spot on and the links and information really helpful. It's a shame this wasn't shared with all.
I don't care what people might think when I reply but being young (well ok youngish) I grew up with internet forums and trolling and I just smile. It's like road rage, it's easy to be rude from the safety of your office.
I think a good way to judge a reply is by the use of a real name.
The name I use is real and therefore my responses can be judged against me! (Imagine going to interview and someone having all my posts- ARGHHH) OK operation change alias in progress :)
I'm not CMIOSH, I don't have 500 years experience but I do hope my opinion sparks debate, points to useful information, or answers a question.
So maybe we should ask for stronger moderation on the forums (Rude posts should be removed) and encourage people to stand up and share their ideas!
Making mistakes is how we learn!
HOHO I Love Fridays.
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Posted By Edward Shyer
NOT everyone who puts a posting on this site is an H&S professional. The problem is That some people don't remember this when they reply with curt responses.
Regards
Ted
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Posted By cathal
Nice one Tracey
Diping in and of postings can be a great way of getting a reasonable answer to what your thinking at that time may be and how another persons perception to a difficult set of circumstances may be which is quite useful.
However some posters are happy to ignore what the original posting is saying and they also have a responsibility to their readers.
If they ignore the real question of the initial posting or go on a retorical rant and reply to questions in a way that can be misinterpreted or otherwise in some way misleading then they may sound offensive.
Most people do not set out to be rude, original posters can mitigate peer bashing by giving intentional information or if asking a question with the intention to be rude but to give honest answers/suggestions whether or not it may be hard to accept.
Scene 1: Act109
Is Mise
Cathal
Slan agut
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Posted By Pete48
Hey Adam, name sounds "real" but it could totally false of course. By using an alias you make it pretty obvious that you wish to post anonymously and therefore that could be seen as more honest??:):)
Only the webteam will know who you really are or have registered as.
Some of us have been pressing IOSH for some time to improve the identification of members (all grades) and visitors/guest for some time. Hopefully one day they will be able to make those improvements. When I go to my brothers club I get signed in as a guest; at the businesses I visit I am signed in as a visitor. I have never considered that as anything other than sensible. Why it seems to be such a problem o this forum has always puzzled me.
Hey, I have just hijacked a thread late on a Friday,, must be worth something.
have a good one everybody.
Tracey, even on manual set up on my mail, I can still misfire all too often:)
But I do agree, I use the preview screen every time and often edit before posting.
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Posted By Steve Cartwright
Tracey
I am the first to put my hand up and ask if I do not know something and as some have already pointed out that is how we learn.
However you only have to look at some of the threads, especially when they start by saying, I've got this client who wants some risk assessments doing or I've just done an inspection for someone and so on and so on. Its obvious they do not know what they are doing and are out of their depth.
So if some replies by stating the obvious i.e. are you sure you should be carrying out these tasks. They are only saying what everyone else is thinking. How do you tell someone they are not up to the job nicely.
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Posted By Tracey Kelly
Of course you can point out that an issue is usually addressed by people specially trained in that subject (e.g. CoSHH assessments, fire safety surveys, hazardous area classifications, etc. etc.), but you can still do it nicely.......
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Posted By David Bannister
So are responders. Some are having a bad day, others are all sweetness & light.
Like email it is easy to fire off a quick response and without the immediate body language or sharp comment back it is easy to be rude without realising it.
That's just the nature of the internet. Live with it!
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Posted By GeoffB4
Well said David. I was about to start crying until I came to the last comment!
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