Posted By Robert. We have just assessed a company as one of our approved suppliers. Their operators members of the BDA and have CSCS cards which we advised as not being adequate enough to fulfill safety knowledge and awareness required whilst working on retail petrol filling stations. (SPA petroleum) They are a good conciencious company and we want to give them a chance. So what we intend to is take them under our wing, site manage the works with one of our own experienced and qualified guys. Then they gradually get their SPA cards It was while our intentions were being discussed that I realised that if it were a construction site, their attendance would be a definate no-no if they didn't have the CSCS card. We've overcome the "obstacle" by sensible agreement. Why can't the const (MCG) industry (in general) do the same?

Posted By Dave Wilson 17 years old CSCS 1/2 hour behind a PC and enrolled on an NVQ - hey presto CSCS card and now safe to work on a construction site! If the company concerned do not do SPA / CCNSG etc for this site are they really competent to do this work? What level of commitment does it show from the contractor? Also are you competent to supervise their work?

Posted By Michael Battman Dave, You give the example of "A 17-year old with 1/2 an hour behind a PC and signed up for an NVQ" being deemed fit to be on site. I think that is very unfair, irrespective of how easy the multiple choice questions are; I do not believe any 17-year old (or older for that matter) without some prior training could pass the test. The situation is far better than when life guards in Cornwall, once the season was over, found jobs in construction until the warm weather returned - with no training. A situation that was common 10-years ago. It is far from perfect, but at least construction now has a base level of personal safety on sites.

Posted By Dave Wilson Michael, I'm not knocking the system mate but this can happen, just because you have a CSCS card doesn't mean nowt as far as safety on site goes. As you are well aware its not competence based.

Posted By TomP If they are land drillers and holders of CSCS cards, as long as the CSCS cards are for land drilling, they must be either holders of a land drilling NVQ or be enrolled for it. This does involve competency. Many in issue are still under grandfather rights however or not specific to land drilling, so check if they are enrolled with the NVQ and the CSCS is for land drilling. As for CSCS being mandatory for construction sites, this isn't the case. Many sites don't enforce CSCS cards for just the reason you allude to - it doesn't make you competent. The CSCS card is a good demonstration of site competency and many contractors see this as an easy opt out of ensuring their suppliers are competent. Doesn't check they have sufficient insurance, have done risk assessments etc. but the recent requirement for an NVQ improves the sitauation re competency. In such cases as the use of land drillers, who are often self employed and won't have written RAs, SSOW etc., you do need to make sure they work under your safe systems of work etc. In my experience the problem with viewing the fuel station as the main hazard, which is correct, often takes the eyes away form the state of the rig, standard of erection etc. This could be just as hazardous as the site being drilled.

Posted By Gerry Marchant Hi gents...just reading through this thread made me think We are a construction company, not an MCG, yet a lot of our clients expect our operatives to hold CSCS cards as they have seen them advertised as a good thing!!!...when I explained that all our operatives are trained in their relevant trade and all have attended an appropriate H&S awareness course within the last five years and passed an end of course assessment and I can provide evidence of this they then re-considered..the requirements are the same for CSCS...I do not believe that the CSCS scheme is the B all of everything...

Posted By HWilson You think CSCS/CPCS is bad - try dealing with EUS which is the Utilities equivalent! I have the misfortune to deal with all three on a regular basis and it usually results in me finding a quiet dark corner of the office and either banging my head against the wall or rocking and moaning for extended periods of time. The only saving grace is that they have all finally agreed to acknowledge each other which is some movement in the right direction. I do agree with the previous posters that an hours touch screen test does not = competence, I was going to say that as part of an NVQ it is ok but I also have the misfortune to be in charge of the gas NVQs at work which is another thread in itself. I wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong idea about competence in the gas industry but, really, getting guys who have worked in the industry for 20 years to pose holding a broom does rather take the biscuit... H

Posted By jmc Hi CSCS; money making scheme. 12 indians 4 romanians 2 polish in this country a month. First thing they are told to do by friends is call 0870850**** to get a job on the construction site. YES this is the number for CSCS now they get a book read it for 2, 3 weeks they go and take the test. If they pass first time which most of these guy`s did they can work on most construction sites, and My site insist`s on CSCS or you dont get on. these guy`s are steel fixers, concrete gangs, joiners, labourer`s, etc. for test and card a bargain at £42.50 for these guy`s but a nightmare for us safety advisors

Posted By TomP I echo everyone’s concerns here. Many construction companies are using the CSCS card as the be all and end all but it has limitations. If you look at the definition of a competent worker under CDM it relates to time served, continuing training including elf and safety, review and assessment. CSCS are trying to address this with the increasing use of NVQs and CPD for the more senior cards but I don’t agree with their claim it is a proof of competency. We mainly have them because it is a commercial necessity to get on some sites but we supplement the card with more suitable training, toolbox talks etc. and our own path towards competency. Interestingly the only site I have recently attended where a big sign said ‘No CSCS card, No work!!!’ no one wanted to see my nice new shiny card. Even the site manager wasn’t bothered.

Posted By Steve T. JMC - Youa re as cynical as me. PS I have been involved in H&S for 25 years, many on construction sites,am CMIOSH etc and have trained many people in all aspects of H&S - i am taking my test soon to keep my CSCS card. A money making scheme it is.