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Posted By Shane Johnston
My son came out of "green club" (a Environmental club run by his school) last week with a Tesco carrier on his head. Given the club is for primary school children I thought it unwise to encourage children to put bags on their head. I raised my concern with the Head Teacher who pointed out that "they were making waterproof hats out of recycled materials" and that the "bag was tied behind their head and couldn't slip over the face". I pointed out that, although my son is eight and knew not to put bags on his head, many of the children came home to younger siblings who might try to copy their older brother/sister. The Head was very dismissive. Before I take the issue further, I just wanted to see what my peers thought. Is the Head suffering from poor judgement, or am I simply adding to the "conkers bonkers" perception of our profession?
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Posted By garyh
I would say, that the head is an idiot. Why not propose asking ROSPA's opinion of this, as a compromise?
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Posted By Konstanty Budkiewicz Shane, Whilst colleagues are thinking about this one, having Goggled your scenario, I draw your attention to some of the principles used in the United States concerning the protection of children and this matter; http://www.conformance.c.../plastic_bag_warning.phpRegards Kon CMOISH
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Posted By David J Jones
To say the head is suffering from "poor judgement" is putting it rather mildly! Anybody with more than two brain cells knows the danger posed by plastic bags of any kind especially those large enough to fit over a child's head (not to mention some adults!).
Its fair to say that most plastic bags of that size will have small holes punched in, or towards, the bottom of the bag to allow air flow in the bag-over-the-head situation, but that still does not stop the bag smothering the child's nose and mouth.
Simply adding to the "bonkers conkers" situation? I personally do not think so and feel you are right to take this further.
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Posted By Konstanty Budkiewicz
Shane,
At your orginal posting you described a situation where children are undertaking a managed school activity. In that environment it is likely that suffication riska would have been mentioned whilst discussing the role of the modified garment that was being produced. Therefore, (to use the jargon)the producers were made Competent Persons by virtue of their training. Your concern is that the training would not be passed on to their siblings. Hence, the uncontrolled risk of suffocation was introduced into your controlled home environment.
This is a common risk faced by parents. For example, there are numerous incidents of falls & chemical exposure in the home: this has led to tamper-proof fixtures, fastenings and other local controls – ie; stair gates, and, locked cupboards etc.
The common thrust is that trained and competent persons (in this case, children) are safer in the home than unaware un-trained toddlers.
Consequently, from your text I do not consider that the school is likely to have placed pupils in harms way, hence the rebutal from staff. However, quite correctly, you identify that this incident needs an element of further control.
Whilst you may feel concerned about the low degree of control exhibited by other parents, it is not in my view the responsibility of the school to act as parents to those not attending the school.
Therefore, it may be more useful to give basic instructions to the affected toddlers. For instance, when I found my first born (18 months old) stuffing a pencil into an uncovered electrical socket, I did not sit him down and go through the Electricity at Work Regs, but simply said HOT and imitated a hot-burn reaction. He never interfered with a socket again.
I suggest that as a caring parent you are straying too far towards a risk aversion solution. In this case, I would not engage further with the school, but use this incident as a trigger to take time-out to review safety in the home with your partner and discuss the relative level of awareness of the siblings. The Plan-Do-Review-Revise mantra comes to mind again!
Hope that this helps in this charged situation.
Kon, CMIOSH
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Posted By Jane Blunt
I think this raises several important issues.
The eight year old is reported as old enough not to put plastic bags over his face because he knows it is dangerous. The same could be said of an adult.
The toddler does not.
At some age, we take responsibility for doing things that we know toddlers are not safe to do - using scissors, putting plastic bags on our heads in a safe manner, etc. There are a whole host of things that an eight-year old will do that could endanger a younger child (small toys, missiles, etc), but we allow them to do them, since it is part of growing up.
The issue is, will the doing of this activity by an eight-year-old possibly endanger a younger sibling?
The answer is yes, if eight-year olds are deemed as reckless and do not know that they should actively discourage younger siblings from trying to copy them.
However, I do not subscribe to this view. I believe that the average eight-year old is quite old enough to understand that a younger sibling could be in danger by trying to copy him, and would not thereby endanger the younger sibling. If you are in any doubt about your eight-year old, then explain it to them.
Therefore, in this situation, after having the same thought as the poster, I would take the child on one side and reinforce the message about the younger children.
I have children and several grandchildren.
Jane
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
I have to say I come down on the side of the "sack the Head" camp. Two conflicting messages are being put across
1) It is dangerous to put bags on your heads
2) You can put bags on your heads in some circumstances
It is hard enough to train people to do the right thing without others then making exceptions that can in some circumstances be applied. Are children able to function as independent thinking persons and analyse the nuances of the thought patterns involved here? I doubt it. Most adults do not do it so why expect it of children.
Bob
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Posted By Alan Hoskins
I take your point Bob, but there is another subtle difference here - putting a bag on the head is not the same as putting it over the head (when it will cover the face).
I know that I should not put a bag over my head and don't, but I have on occasion (heavy rain and no hat) put a bag on my head... after a suitable and sufficient risk assessment of course! ;-)
Alan
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
I cannot make that distinction even with an adult labourer, sorry General Craft Operative, so methinks an 8 year old is not going to be any easier.
A good manager ensures that the message is clear and concise. Not requiring interpretation unless he is confident in delegating the decision to a.n.other. This forum regularly receives postings about the problems of on the task risk assessments by competent adults so what makes this problem any different.
The real answer is that the environmentalists involved here have been far to narrow in their assessment of what might be the consequences of their actions. They see only fewer bags to landfill. The best answer to these bags is to re-use them for their original purpose or to eliminate them completely. Not find uses that can give out confusing messages. This story is bad for environmentalists let alone H&S.
Shane, go and talk to the LA or governers as I think some sense needs to be "eased" into the minds of the Leaders of this club.
Bob
Bob
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Posted By Exdeeps
Shane,
Just to develope Robert K Lewis's advice re talking to the LA and Governors, my advice, as a school governor, is to request a copy of the schools complaints policy (The are legally required to have one and to provide you with a copy upon request). Once you have the complaints policy follow it exactly, even if that means the first complaint goes to the Head teacher. trying to shortcut the process will slow everything down. Also, DON'T talk directly to a governor as you then "taint" them if there is a need for governors to hear the complaint. Many people don't realise that the governors effectively sit above the Head teacher, as a body corporate, and are therefore the line management for the head teacher - Governors do not "represent" the parent body in the way MP's represent their constituency,
Jim
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Posted By anon1234
Clearly we don't have all the facts, but assuming the activity was done in a responsible manner and pointed out the the nose and mouth must not be covered by the bag then I think any complaint is completely over the top.
Taking the argument that other siblings could try copying this, well yes maybe they would - but so do they try and copy all sorts of other activities from their siblings and the TV. Take sport as one example - some activities could lead to serious injuries or fatalities if not undertaken properly.
And speaking as a parent, why would we allow access to plastic bags to young kids to play with anyway - surely thats asking for trouble ;}
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Anon
Let us face it - These people did not even think about the issue until Shane asked the question. Glib answers then rolled out as if by magic. We can all find reasons for doing something that with hindsight we perhaps ought not have done or said.
There is only one clear consistent message for young children with regards to plastic bags - They are not for placing over your head or face - Full stop. Any head who wants to defend a position other than this needs to explain to his governers under the procedures in place, just as Exdeeps has set out. At this moment the head is treating the parent of a pupil with the disdain reminiscent of a bygone era. I would not want any child of mine to be taught in such a school.
Bob
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Posted By Lee Mac
Obviously this approach by the head is one of purely being Eco-friendly rather than taking account of its safety implications.
I as I am sure many of you out there can recall a few times as a child donning the plastic bag, unaware of the risks. My mother aware of the risks, made me aware of the dangers and the bag was removed.
If the Head could not heed your advice wisely, perhaps this is cause to go higher to get your message across.
Being eco-friendly in such an environment, the Head should be aware of the implications to the child and as mentioned previously its siblings from using a plastic bag. Surely a common sense approach would have been for the Head to accept he/she was wrong and highlight this to the class and use a paper bag instead as an item which could have been reused.
Their aim of being Eco-friendly is to admirable however their method is most definitely not.
Rant over!
Lee
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Posted By Jonathan Breeze
Somehow I think paper bag rain hats would never catch on!
That said, you can make a fantastic kite out of a thick polythene bag, some garden canes, sellotape and a bit of string. At least two of these items could be recycled.
Just don't fly it in a storm or by those pylons!
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Posted By Lee Mac
Apologies I did not note it was a rain hat, I assumed wrongly it was a merely a hat.
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Posted By akm
Personally I'd say that 8 year olds are perfectly capable of understanding that plastic bags shouldn't be put over their heads, and that parents are as capable of instructing younger siblings of the same message. Certainly my 2 year old got to grips with concept when he tried to use a plastic bag as a hat (and I'm not a bad parent...honest).
However, I would also question the validity of using plastic bags to make hats anyway. Remembering that the mantra should be reduce, reuse, recycle, its the first two steps that are the most important. Making hats out of plastic bags is no different than making Tracy Island out of yogurt pots i.e. its not so much recycling, its creative play time. If something is to be recycled, it would be best to create something that adds (a tiny bit of) value to society. I can bet that 95% of those hats were in the bin with 48 hours and will never be used in the rain. Instead, why not rip them up and make decoractive bunting, bird scarers, or anything else that my mind can't think of?
Basically, kids and parents aren't completely stupid, but why do it anyway? I'm sure there are better ways to recycle plastic bags.
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Posted By Pete48
It is only conkers bonkers if you handle it in the wrong manner.
You have a genuine concern about a lesson plan that you feel introduced unnecessary or unacceptable risks to your and other children. As you have learnt today; some agree, others don't.
Formally complaining immediately after one discussion with a teacher seems a little harsh. To call for a sacking is completely conkers bonkers. IMHO
My view is that the risks associated are not as clear as some would claim but it does need some further discussion. We need to understand whether this is an oversight (n.b good old human error that plagues education just as commonly as other sectors?) by the teaching staff or our misunderstanding of the reasons why the school considers it OK. The action plan will be very different dependant on that answer.
I would go back to the teacher and talk again, try to close the ground between you. I am sure you would find a better way forward than all this ranting.
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Posted By Shane Johnston
Perhaps there are two points I should add to my original posting. Firstly, the club is open to the whole primary school, so includes much younger children than my eight year old. Secondly, I am a Parent Governor at the School. I chose to raise my concern with the Head following a Governors meeting rather than at the meeting as I though the Head would recognise this was inappropriate, instead she chose to defend her action. I will now put my concerns in writing to the Head and Chair of Governors, and I expect the Head to explain her actions at the next meeting.
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Posted By alex mccreadie
Shane you are correct Plastic bags and kids do not mix.
Ta Alex
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Shane
I am totally with you. The crux of this problem is that many teachers (including heads) do not know how to risk assess properly. In fact they did not even perceive the need for a risk assessment of what they were doing and this is why the head is being defensive. This is the same underlying problem of failing to recognise the need to assess that occurs regularly on school trips with resulting tragedies, although in some cases valid assessments are not re-assessed following change.
I would pursue the private conversation and if that is not successful then the governers meeting is the only other viable route, but have a word with your chair of governers first. The problem is that you are probably now about to find a very entrenched Head with the ramparts firmly secured.
Bob
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Posted By anon1234
Bob,
In responding to my comment you stated "Let us face it - These people did not even think about the issue until Shane asked the question. Glib answers then rolled out as if by magic." How do you know they hadn't thought about it and considered the issues, this may be why the head was "dismissive" of Shane's comments - we weren't there and we don't know all the facts. Indeed I'm sure shane wasn't there during the activity and therefore may be making some assumptions, we don't don't know to wht extent the facts were established.
So I would stand by my initial comment "Clearly we don't have all the facts, but assuming the activity was done in a responsible manner and pointed out the the nose and mouth must not be covered by the bag then I think any complaint is completely over the top."
Therefore I have stated my assumption in my response - clearly without any such action being taken then the risks are increased, but again we don't know what the 'process' of making the hat entailled - it may have been akin to the 'knotted handerchief' design and hence did not involve putting any of the head actually inside the bag etc. etc.
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Posted By David J Jones
Some interesting and valid responses.
Surely the basic point about this situation is that parents have a reasonable right to expect their child to be safe at school. By the very act of their child attending school they are passing their care of the child to the Head and his/her staff for the duration of the school day including after school clubs and similar activities.
I'm quite sure most parents will have taught their offspring, at an early age, the dangers of putting any type of plastic bag over the head. Now there appears to be a school which is sending out a conflicting message to the children - it's o.k to make a rain hat from a plastic bag but how is the child going to determine when a hat is not a hat and, in a playful moment, slide the "hat" down over their face with possible tragic consequences?
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Anon
Maybe I was a little sweeping but perhaps that is the old cynic in me. I find it the case rather often and am to be convinced that this is not yet another instance.
If there had been a realistic consideration then i think the head would have been a little more responsive but as you say "who knows".
Bob
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