Posted By The toecap I am i wrong here? We have a man basket for the Fork lift. There are 2 oins whish are placed at the heel of the forks. I say we don't use it until we get a replcement of pins. The site manager says put bolts in. I say the bolts may snap as they are not what the basket should have. He goes crazy and threatens me. But i stand my ground.

Posted By CFT TC Those pins are a type of high tensile steel and as such are designed for purpose as opposed to mild steel bolts which are not. C

Posted By LMR you may be correct in that 'get it done' and no issues with the substitution and if all goes well then fine and dandy. However, should there be a failure or should the item become involved in any other incident (even witnessing from height another event) and the HSE discover that the substitution was made then there is a BIG difference. Like for like is the only way to proceed; they were designed that way for a reason. The biggest difference could be in the prosecution of personal injury compensation which will cost more in insurance all for the sake of the correct pin or a substitute bolt. I know which I would take (with hindsight being perfect).

Posted By alex mccreadie LMR I dont think you are reading my post correctly you can have like for like pins and bolts. Nobody is suggesting putting a quarter inch bolt in an half inch hole we are talking like for like. It works.

Posted By Robert K Lewis LMR I wish most buyers and managers would listen to your words. Bolts are not replacement for pins and even non-manufacturers pins are not necessarily replacement for manufacturers pins. Bob

Posted By LMR in simple terms Toecap - you are right. any delay in obtaining the correct part is cheaper than a prosecution or increased premiums; and you sleep easier at night.

Posted By alex mccreadie Gentlemen and Ladies who might be following this post. I work for a Major Tower Crane Provider in the UK I am also a qualified Plant and Lifting Tackle Inspector. At present we are going through a stage where a Customer wants us to fit pins instead of bolts as pins cannot come loose! All our Tower Cranes are less than 2 years old but we have gone back to the manufacturer asking about the feasibility of this.( Not that we will change for Cranes already erected) In the scenario mentioned this man basket could have 2 correct bolts fitted be inspected by your normal inspector and production could carry on. Not Heath Robinson practical legal and end of problem. By the time we have done all this talking the pins have probably been ordered and have arrived?

Posted By tom boland Gents I would have thought the easiest, safest and only way to get approval for substituting pins for bolts is to get approval from the manufacturer. If he approves in writing, you should be covered. If not, you would have extreme difficulty in a court of law defending yourself were the substitute components deemed to be a factor in any incident. We always refer to manufacturer's advice. Good luck Ton

Posted By db HSE inspectors can (and do - I have first hand experience of this unfortunately) issue prohibition notices for using man baskets on construction sites. The argument in PM28 being that it is reasonably practicable to use a purpose built machine.

Posted By Robert K Lewis The use of such baskets, as db states, is subject to there being no suitable alternative. The use of such baskets is only rarely justifiable even on cost grounds. Bob

Posted By Martin Taylor Coming back to the pins versus the bolts. If I were the manager suggesting bolts I would like to hear a reasoned argument as to why it is less safe to use the cage secured to the forks with bolts rather than the original pins. I don't see this argument made here. The pins are there to prevent any chance of the cage moving on the forks whilst being lifted with a man in the cage. The forces on the case should be predominantly vertical - no great forces moving the cage off the forks. If the cage is being driven aggressively I can imagine the cage tending to move and load on the bolts (pins) equally if the tilt is put to lower the bolts (pins) will take load but both of these are gross bad practice when using a truck - is it the case of protecting the cage under these misuse conditions. Am I missing some other key hazard in this case (given that it is a short term action to get through the time till the proper pins are available). Being too dogmatic could backfire - next time they may not bother to report that the pins are gone and proceed with nothing! Martin

Posted By Paul L Williams My concern would be that by using bolts you then condone it with the workforce. Imagine in the future if the bolts go missing and someone thinks I'll just put another bolt in, not considering if it's high tensile. Personally I'd try and source new pins from the manufacturer.

Posted By Andy Brazier I'm with Martin on this one. If the safety department simply say you can't use bolts because it is not what the manufacturer recommends without a good risk based argument people will simply not ask for their advice again. Surely in this circumstance the safety department should be advising how the job can be done safely whilst the pins are unavailable. In this case I believe the pins are not load bearing. Therefore, with some additional controls, bolts are more than adequate. These controls may restrict the activities, require extra supervision or an additional fixing mechanism. This approach means you are not saying it is OK to use bolts instead of pins. Instead you are engaging with the risk management process by saying you can do something different, but it may cost. As others have said, the ultimate question must be why are we doing this and is there an alternative? I really can't imagine bolts vs pins is the most important question.

Posted By Andy Brazier I would like to add that, although above I said we should not exclude the idea of using bolts where it is necessary, for the sake of £14 I believe your management are crazy to not order the pins.