Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Admin  
#1 Posted : 28 February 2008 12:44:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Phillipe Just a quickie, A tresspasser falls 20ft from a roof ends up in hospital. Premises he tresspasses on are closed and outside of normal working hours. RIDDOR states that "death or injury to a person NOT at work that results in that person being taken to hospital" is reportable. I am moved to report on that basis alone, but was looking for your views on the tresspass issue. Any comments?
Admin  
#2 Posted : 28 February 2008 13:06:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Tim Did he go direct to hospital for treatment, I assume it was a different hospital that treated the person.
Admin  
#3 Posted : 28 February 2008 13:15:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Phillipe Tim He did eventually go to hospital once paramedics took him there from the scene. The tresspass thing is bugging me more than the incident itself. He breaks in to our property and we get the EHO all over us for no reason...hard one to swallow from where I am sitting.
Admin  
#4 Posted : 28 February 2008 13:28:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Darren (Daz) Fraser Phillipe IMHO you should report, but make very clear in the report that the individual was an unauthorised person on site. Some of the measures you could state that you are currently doing could include a complete review of current security arrangements to prevent a re-occurrence, restriction of access to area from which they fell if at all possible etc. If an EHO does visit, then you can explain to them all that you have done, but a trespasser is on site illegally etc, short of 24/7 security patrols there is not a lot that can be done realistically. Any cost incurred I would try to recover from the person (but do not hold your breath), regardless of the outcome of any criminal investigation.
Admin  
#5 Posted : 28 February 2008 13:33:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Phillipe Daz Thanks for the comments. We are currently reviewing exactly what you have stated...great minds think alike as they say ! Thanks Phil
Admin  
#6 Posted : 28 February 2008 13:36:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By CFT Whopping great area that will include the Occupiers' Liability Act 1984 (assuming your not in Scotland) and the Health & Safety at work Act 1974. OLA 57 is visitors, the quoted 84 Act includes trespassers as indicated above. I recommend you get some specialist advice as a matter of some urgency; there is much to look at from both sides of the fence. There is good reason why you have said inspectorate on your property; spend some time researching the above examples for a detailed explanation. CFT
Admin  
#7 Posted : 28 February 2008 14:18:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Paul Duell Remember that to be RIDDOR-able, the injury must have arisen "out of or in connection with work". 1) Was the trespasser on the roof because of any legitimate work activity? ("Working as a burglar" probably doesn't count!) 2) Did he fall because the roof had been left unsafe as part of a work activity? (e.g. re-tiling) Unless the answer to one of these questions is yes, I'd say the accident is NOT RIDDOR. That doesn't mean you haven't got OLA liabilities, but I don't think it's RIDDOR.
Admin  
#8 Posted : 28 February 2008 15:16:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By CFT Sorry Paul, incorrect; 'if a member of the public suffers an injury and is taken to hospital or is killed you must notify the enforcing authority without delay by the same way as you would, had it been a work related situation'. CFT
Admin  
#9 Posted : 28 February 2008 16:09:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Paul Duell **Sorry Paul, incorrect** Got a source for that quote? Not saying I disbelieve you, but I'd like to see it. My answer came from Riddor 10(c), which specifically mentions "out of or in connection with work"
Admin  
#10 Posted : 28 February 2008 16:37:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Heather Collins This entirely depends on whether you can consider that any part of the accident arose "out of or in connection with work" (quote taken direct from the RIDDOR Regs). The RIDDOR guidance document L73 says there are 3 key factors in determining this: 'the manner of conducting an undertaking'. This refers to the way in which any work activity is being carried out for the purposes of an undertaking, including how it is organised, supervised or performed by an employer or any of their employees, or by a self-employed person; for example: boxes spread across a walkway cause someone trying to get around them to be injured. · 'the plant or substances used for the purposes of the undertaking'. This includes, for example: lifts; air conditioning plant; any machinery, equipment or appliance; gas installations; and substances used in connection with the premises or with processes carried on there. One example would be somebody who enters a lift and trips and falls because the lift had not stopped level with the floor. · 'the condition of the premises used by the undertaking or of any part of them'. This includes the state of the structure or fabric of a building or outside area forming part of the premises and the state and design of floors, paving, stairs, lighting etc; for example, a building is being refurbished and a temporary wall collapses, injuring a passer-by. (all this is quoted directly from para 34 of the guidance) Therefore I would agree with what was stated above. Only if the state of the roof itself due to work being carried out on it had contributed to the accident is this likely to be reportable. It seems most likely that it will not be although of course we can't really say without knowing more details.
Admin  
#11 Posted : 28 February 2008 16:43:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Mitch I would say yes I would also say if in doubt report and be dammed!
Admin  
#12 Posted : 28 February 2008 17:05:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Andrew W Your liability towards people who are not your visitors The Occupiers’ Liability Act 1984 sets out the duty of care you owe to people you have not invited or permitted to be on your land, such as trespassers. Normally, you still owe such people some duty of care if: you know there is a danger, and know that people may be in (or come into) the vicinity of the danger – or in either case you have reasonable grounds for believing this to be so; and the risk is one against which you may reasonably be expected to offer some protection. Where these criteria apply, you have to take reasonable care that people do not suffer injury on your land. You may be able to discharge this duty of care by warning people about a danger (eg. with a notice) but this may not always be enough. For example, some extra precautions may be needed if you believe unsupervised children are likely to use your land. Again, this duty of care does not apply to risks that adults willingly accept on behalf of themselves or those immediately in their care. Taken from http://www.openaccess.go.../wps/portal/lm/liability Hope this is some help Andy
Admin  
#13 Posted : 28 February 2008 17:33:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Chris Jerman One of the tests in such cases as this is to determine whether someone legitimate could have been harmed in the same way. If there is no access to the roof and a burglar uses a grappling hook to get up there and falls through the fragile roof, despite warning signs - I'd simply report it to the police! If they get up there by normal means and the walkway is defective - you, the employer clearly have a case to answer. I never agonize about reporting, If in doubt, we do, but put a 'healthy' explanation in the report that makes our skepticism very clear. We always ask 'Would the HSE actually be interested in knowing about this?' Some organizations, I know, use RIDDOR as a measure. We don't. It's not a statistic that we have interest in. So there's never a reluctance on the part of our managers to report. IF we over report, I'm sure that they'll let us know. It would be nice to get a letter saying 'Stop reporting to us!!" I'd frame that one. C
Admin  
#14 Posted : 28 February 2008 18:42:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By CFT Paul Absolutely, not a problem to provide that in the slightest;I specifically will not offer assistance or advice without legislative support,BS, ACoP or best Practice/HSG, stating which is applicable if appropriate to do so, it is a legislative requirement to report taking the original information supplied as completely accurate. RIDDOR http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/guidance.htm#what Click on, what is reportable. scroll down to: 'Reportable deaths and major injuries' Second paragraph, 'major injuries,' read towards second part of second line and continuing. CFT
Admin  
#15 Posted : 28 February 2008 19:23:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Tim Phillipe, I mentioned earlier about going direct from the site to hospital for treatment because of the following: (c) any person not at work suffers an injury as a result of an accident arising out of or in connection with work and that person is taken from the site of the accident to a hospital for treatment in respect of that injury; However, i still feel its a difficult one to decide because of the reference to out of or in connection with work. What I would be a bit more concerned about was how he got access onto the roof, did he have to make a considerable effort to get to the roof or just walk through an unsecured door? Was there any edge protection on the roof that he had to climb over etc
Admin  
#16 Posted : 29 February 2008 08:07:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Mitch You could have reported it and have been done with it in the time it would take to read all these responses, as Chris said if you over report no-ones going to penalise you.
Admin  
#17 Posted : 29 February 2008 08:57:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Paul Duell CFT, thanks for providing that link. I hope you won't think I'm being picky, but I think that section can be read either way: It's all one sentence, and it starts "If there is an accident connected with work...". If that phrase applies to the whole sentence, then my interpretation is right and an accident to a member of the public is only reportable if the accident is connected with work. If the comma before the bit you quoted is intended to separate the sentence, so the opening phrase doesn't apply, then your interpretation is right. The regs themselves - specifically reg 3(c) - appear to me to be much clearer and to support my version. Either way, as someone here has already said, the easiest option is to report, with a clear explanation, and let the Incident Contact Centre sort it out!
Admin  
#18 Posted : 29 February 2008 10:13:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By CFT Phillipe As you were looking for views on the trespass issue and not neccesserily the Riddor one, do you now have sufficient reference material to understand why exactly the LA are involved? CFT
Admin  
#19 Posted : 04 March 2008 12:44:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Phillipe Yes I do thanks Phillipe
Admin  
#20 Posted : 04 March 2008 15:20:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By robert9 In my opinion, in terms of RIDDOR, this isn't reportable: as it wasn't connected to the work activity. In the past when I've been unsure I've called the HSE advice line, they are very helpful and the call is anonymous. Robert9
Admin  
#21 Posted : 04 March 2008 16:26:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By water67. Hi, you have my sympathy. We had an incident a few years back. residential home in middle of a council estate closed. Local kids running around on the flat roof..jumping on the sky light. A child of 6 running around goes through the sky light weakened by all the abuse from other bigger kids jumping on it, (injury - fractured skull and other minor cuts and bruises), Plenty of signs saying closed don't go on roof etc. HSE came in threatened us because in their view we didn't do enough to prevent young people accessing. Had to increase preventative measures re climb proof railing things on top of wall- roof. young persons family then tried to sue us. Settled out of court. Bottom line the kid was trespassing..but hey who cares.. every thing is down to us the owners.. seems no responsibility on the young people or the parents. Should have been a no win no fee lawyer. loads a dosh!!!!!!! Cheers.
Admin  
#22 Posted : 04 March 2008 16:37:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Pete Longworth A child of 6 was able to climb onto a roof. Must have been easy to get up there. What had you done to prevent it? What child of 6 is going to read warning notices? IMO you were lucky not to be prosecuted there and then. That sort of situation is what the OLAs are all about.
Admin  
#23 Posted : 11 March 2008 15:41:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Christopher Kelly TechIOSH MIIRSM AIEMA This is exactly the reason why construction sites have HERAS fencing round them - tresspassers (adult) and children. The more attractive your premises are the greater the precautions you should take. We had a HSE Inspector round to a premises where I was working(transport / warehousing) just after a break-in - he told us that if we hadn't had signs up at certain intervals warning of danger of razor wire (which was well out of reach, well lit etc) he would have prosecuted us - the thief got badly cut getting back over the security fence when the razors went through the rug he had put on the fence. The goods in the warehouses were attractive to thieves so we had to ensure the premises were very secure but tresspassers wouldn't get injured. The lower the age of the likely tresspassers the more responsibility on the occupier / owner. Incidentally I was told by a policeman that, if you have a secure compound, properly signed and with sufficient discouragements to climbing fences etc that the occupier cannot be held responsible for the actions of any guard-dog loose in the compound. I think this probably needs to be tested in the courts but as Phillipe says there must be an element of personal responsibility on the tresspasser. Regards
Admin  
#24 Posted : 11 March 2008 15:49:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Christopher Kelly TechIOSH MIIRSM AIEMA Pete, when I was about 21 I went across a bridge near where I used to live as a young kid. I looked down between the 2 carriageways where I once climbed up the steelwork to get over the parapet and nearly needed to change my pants. I reckon I was 6 and my brother was 5 when we used to do that ! Agree there needs to be recognition that kids and tresspassers have a greater level of responsibility but if you leave a building easily accessible it will be a place of great fun to a kid. If there are easily identifiable risks (eg me climbing up the steelwork) then no problem. However there are lots of areas within buildings where a kid would have no idea of the risks until it was too late - then clearly the occupier should have done something to prevent it. It's all down to risk assessment / regular inspection of premises. Unfortunately some property owners seem to think they can leave properties to become dangerous without any responsibility on themselves. Regards
Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.