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#1 Posted : 03 March 2008 14:38:00(UTC)
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Posted By Michael Thomas I recently noticed in Tips & Advice H&S issue 11, an article on the back page stating Travelodge had been fined £70,000 for slip incidents, one of which resulted in a guest being taken to hospital. I work in a College which has over 1,000 Trainees all living in accomodation on site. We have had the occasional fall in the shower cubicles. What do you consider the best way forward? a. Put up signs warning of the potential slip hazard in all the shower rooms. b. Brief all Trainees on their arrival at the College on the slips hazards. Although in the past we have not considered a Risk Assessment necessary for the Living Accomodation, I believe this is now required. Our RA's have concentrated on the working environment at the College and we have controlled the Accomodation buy having a responsible members of staff in control of each Block and carrying out regular inspections. Thanks for any help Mick
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#2 Posted : 03 March 2008 15:58:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mitch Michael, On what basis were Travelodge fined? What had they failed to do/control and how does this compare to your organisations facilities/management system?
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#3 Posted : 03 March 2008 16:13:00(UTC)
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Posted By Michael Thomas Hi Mitch. Sorry for being a bit vague, but the only info I had on Travelodge was written in the Tips & Advice. This stated "Travelodge had been fined £20,000 with a whopping £50,000 costs after admitting to 5 offences under the HSWA. This was because no action had been taken following slip incidents in their bathrooms." These injured persons I assume to be Members of the Public. Our business is part of the MOD so anyone injured would be our employees, but would be off-duty at the time. I can only recall one injury so far, but I believe we will have to address the issue. As I said earlier, we would not normally consider producing RA's out of the work domain. Mick
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#4 Posted : 03 March 2008 16:16:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ron Impey I judge that the best approach would be to investigate if there are any slipping hazards, and if there are, take effective direct measures to rectify. The posting of warning signs would only be appropriate if it was not possible to correct the situation. I have seen anti-slip mats supplied in some hotel bathrooms, but all it takes is for a guest not to use one and ..... An alternative if the application of a non-slips coating, etc., was not possible? I understand that at Travelodge an anti-slip treatment could have been applied to each bath for about £30, but no action was taken for up to 2 years following the accidents.
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#5 Posted : 03 March 2008 16:23:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mitch Michael, Agree with Ron, assess and act where identified, if this is not reasonably practicable try signs as a last resort. It might be worth looking into the Travelodge case at the root causes that were not actioned on. Mitch PS Are you up at DSFC Woodhouse by any chance?
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#6 Posted : 03 March 2008 16:29:00(UTC)
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Posted By Karen Todd Lots of useful info on the HSE website. Also check out HSG155. You can measure the slip resistance of the flooring using a pendulum and surface microroughness meter and quantify the problem. Treatments are available which are relatively cheap - you could probably treat the entire area for less than what 1 claim would cost. Karen
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#7 Posted : 03 March 2008 17:11:00(UTC)
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Posted By Colin Reeves Karen Agree about measuring slip resistance of floors, but the question relates to showers. There is a thin line between getting a suitably "grippy" surface and making it difficult to keep hygienic without usage of chemicals, which have their own drawbacks. Mats are probably even worse for hygiene. Is this not a case of "everyone is aware that smooth shower floors are slippy when wet, take care"?? Are we at risk of bonkers conkers again? Colin
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#8 Posted : 03 March 2008 18:41:00(UTC)
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Posted By CFT Root cause analysis leads me to conclude the floor as being the immediate causation factor, remove slippiness and problem solved. A bonded non slip surface is all that is required. Anything else is a half measure. CFT
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#9 Posted : 03 March 2008 20:10:00(UTC)
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Posted By Karen Todd Yes, (in general) everything is slippier when wet. However, there is a possibility that the tiles were inadequately specified in the first instance, and there are some tiles that are better than others. BS 5385: 2007 (Wall and Floor Tiling), and BS EN 14411: 2006 (Ceramic tiles. Definitions, classification, characteristics and marking) might be useful. Without advertising products or services and falling foul of the acceptable use guidelines, I know of a product used to treat floors (and no, I don't sell it). It's not acid based, and it's so safe that the inventor once drank some in front of someone who asked him what was in it. I have had it demonstrated to me in an area of a school kitchen and there was a significant difference before and after treatment - and this was quantified by the use of a pendulum. I also know of people who've gone down the route of re-tiling an entire area rather than treat - I suppose depending on what you're dealing with it can be difficult to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear! I've e-mailed the poster privately with the details so as not to fall foul of the acceptable use guidelines. See also here: http://www.ukslipresistance.org.uk/ Karen
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#10 Posted : 03 March 2008 20:13:00(UTC)
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Posted By Karen Todd Assuming that it is in fact tiled and not a plastic shower tray. The cleaning regime may also warrant further inspection as things that may contribute to slips are: - Detergent residue - "Grease" from shed skin Karen
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#11 Posted : 03 March 2008 23:04:00(UTC)
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Posted By Karen Todd One final thing - some of the lotions & potions used by people in the shower might be a contributory factor, e.g. some shave gels & oils have silicone in them. KT
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#12 Posted : 06 March 2008 09:35:00(UTC)
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Posted By Michael Thomas Sorry for the delay in getting back, have been out of the office for a couple of days. Thank you all for the advice and tips. I will certainly take all your comments on board. Have already completed the RA, this will get us over the first hurdle and avoid any immediate falling out with the HSE if something did occur! Just to put a bit more "meat on the bone", the College has over 1000 showers and baths. Unlike, for instance, a Hotel chain, we have a huge variety of different baths, shower trays and a multitude of tiling surfaces. This tends to negate a lot of the testing solutions. Again, unlike Hotels, our customers are all military personnel so tend to be all able-bodied and reasonably fit, so in theory should be able to look after themselves! I do believe gels and shaving products have an effect on the condition of the surface and I will check with our cleaning contractors. Again another side effect of H&S is the limitation of cleaning products to ensure safety. With so many different surfaces, the practicality of non-slip surface coatings may be difficult. In addition this possible huge cost would have to be born out of the "public purse" so to speak. For now I think we will brief all Trainees of the hazard, place signs where we think they will be of benefit, and carry out an inspection programme to highlight any that appear somewhat slippier than what is norm. We hope this together with accident monitoring will go some way to proving we are doing all that is reasonably practicable. Another thing we have to consider is this does not just affect our site, but possibly accomodation throughout the entire military arena. One of the things that concerns me slightly regards the prosecution of Travelodge. Without knowing the full details of the case, 5 slip incidents within an organisation that has many thousands of baths and probably hundreds of thousands of guests per year could seem to be overzealous. This is of course purely my opinion. I believe a slip getting in and out of baths and shower cubicles has always been, and always will be a risk. Sorry for the length of the reply. Again many thanks for your input.
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#13 Posted : 06 March 2008 09:57:00(UTC)
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Posted By Tabs That's five reported, and investigated slips ... how many of us have "half-slipped" because the cleaning regime was not up to standards? I know I have, and I am quite careful. This is a very well known problem, and not comparable to conkers ... a slip on a bath or a tiled floor can lead to very significant injuries, and is not a one in a million risk, is it. Even at £30 per treatment, a thousand such showers / baths amounts to £30k which compared to some of the injury claims you are exposed to is not disproportional, I would suggest. More than most of us, your clients are more likely to face discharge over injury. Cost to replace a Major? Even a private would exceed £30k in training, let alone injury claim and lost earnings.
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#14 Posted : 06 March 2008 10:15:00(UTC)
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Posted By Konstanty Budkiewicz Michael, At home, I have a bath with a stand-in shower facility. The bath has a low friction surface, and its friction capability is adversely affected by shower-related products. To aide stability of shower users, I have installed a half-metre grab handle adjacent to the shower head/ controller wheel (found users could become unsteady when soap got in eyes). Underfoot, have bought a half-metre suction cup-faced waterproof mat, that has an upper friction surface (retail £10). Admittedly, cleaning of mould build-up base is an issue as indicated in the above responses. So I clean once a month and replace 6-monthly. Hope the above countermeasures are of use when you consider controlling some of your higher risk installations. Finally, yesterday, mindful of your situation, I spotted a new sexy shower installation that was fitted with wooden duck boards as the walk-in friction surfaces. I seem to remember that the military made great use of this approach in similar situations. Cheers Kon CMIOSH
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#15 Posted : 06 March 2008 10:16:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mitch Michael, I would consult with your cleaning contractors (they to have a duty of care!) Prepare an suitable cleaning regime with appropriate cleaning products for the various surfaces, laborious but justified. I would then consider you have done everything "reasonably practicable" given the circumstances. After that it is down to the individuals to take reasonable care, as most of the population do at home or at work on a daily basis when showering/bathing!
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#16 Posted : 06 March 2008 10:20:00(UTC)
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Posted By Tabs Kon, wet wood is lethal after a while. It tends to get impregnated and the soap etc., floats on top and whoosh!
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#17 Posted : 06 March 2008 10:29:00(UTC)
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Posted By John C The use of mats in some circumstances can change a slip hazard into a trip hazard.
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#18 Posted : 06 March 2008 10:41:00(UTC)
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Posted By Colin Reeves I use a mat in my home environment and it is OK, but does need regular cleaning to keep it it non-slip and hygienic. There are only two of us so what diseases I get we both get!! However, in Michael's situation, I suspect that some, if not all, the locations he is concerned with have multiple users. In this case I believe the hygiene problems associated with rubber mats would far outweigh any slip protection and I would not consider this a sensible solution. Colin
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#19 Posted : 06 March 2008 10:59:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mitch I don't use a mat at home, after a week spent watching everyone elses back I go home from the pub on a Friday teatime, squirt fairy liquid all over the shower tray and then unwind with a hot shower.
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#20 Posted : 06 March 2008 11:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By Konstanty Budkiewicz Tabs and John C, Thank you for your observations, my point was that when faced with a hazard that has caused significant harm, controls are available at little initial cost. However, as you indicate, they usually come with a support maintenace price tag. I acknowledge that elimination is best: my reason for posting was to identify available interim solutions; albeit with a cost tag. In my case, this includes a post-use wash down of the surface and the employment of a weekly cleaner to support and maintain the efficiency of my countermeasures. I find the same issues arise in the work place; particularly, with the over reliance on RPE and PPE. You will no doubt be pleased to hear that funding is in place to refit my bathroom with a standalone new tech shower. One interesting aspect that arises here when discussing the slip issues, do we all use too much, or the wrong range of shower type gells? I suspect that the over-use of high density hair conditioner may be the slip-related culprit. Kon CMIOSH
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#21 Posted : 02 April 2008 09:46:00(UTC)
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Posted By joe annett Michael, In response to your query about slippery bath tubs and showers, we have a product which increases slip resistance on these surfaces by over 300%, and remains compliant for 5 years.Under the HASAWA 1999, owners of properties must ensure that floor (and shower/bath areas) under their jurisdiction are safe for the intended use. In the majority of cases these owners, and indeed specifying designers and architects are not aware of their obligations, or of any method which legally determines the safety standard of the floor in situ. Unfortunately, ignorance is no excuse, and the courts will decide on factual evidence only. So, if you are concerned about the safety of these areas, at least get a reading done to determine the current safety levels. If they are up to standard, then great, - if not then at least you will be aware of the risks involved in leaving them as they are.
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#22 Posted : 02 April 2008 15:39:00(UTC)
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Posted By Andy Petrie Take out the showers, it's not like students to wash anyway
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#23 Posted : 03 April 2008 15:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By Stephen Cassidy There was a case, must have been a few years ago now, it was in an army barracks in Germany. The individual fell in the shower and damaged his mouth. I will try and dig the info out.
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#24 Posted : 03 April 2008 16:16:00(UTC)
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Posted By CFT Joe HSWA 1999???? Perhaps you are making reference to the The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 or HSWA 1974. CFT
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#25 Posted : 20 April 2008 13:40:00(UTC)
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Posted By Andrew Wylie Luckily there's a non-acid based treatment on the market now (acrylic based so fine for shower trays etc) www.skidproof.co.uk I gather it's just been approved by the BRE at Watford.
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#26 Posted : 21 April 2008 12:03:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jane Blunt Have you tried actually entering and leaving the shower trays? Sometimes the height of the floor is different and this alone can create considerable problems. In one University that I frequently visit the shower trays are above the floor level, and stepping out from the tray is always difficult, whether the floor is non-slip or not. You are going over a ledge and stepping down with wet feet. I can heartily recommend handrails, as well as making sure the floor is not slippery. Jane
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#27 Posted : 21 April 2008 13:32:00(UTC)
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Posted By David F Spencer We had a slip accident in communal showers a few months ago and the use of oils was largely to blame for it. The floor had a fine coating of oil from an earlier user which left it slippery when wet, despite the tiles having a reasonably high grip under normal circumstances. Effective cleaning is the key to a large part of keeping the area safe. Sadly, many cleaners don't even know what BICS stands for, let alone have experience of BICS training. In my experience, Travelodge bathrooms now have handrails and warning notices and the floors have anti-slip surfaces (I use them because I can take my dog with me). However, their fixed showerheads don't allow a great deal of water through for economy reasons and that results in residue which the cleaners are then supposed to remove. A little more water might have flushed the area better & prevented some of the accidents, so think before reducing the flow too far for economy's sake.
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