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Posted By Antony McManus
Hi, I came across an old thread where some members said they had a tool for carrying out a FRA, in offices.
Anybody got any ideas of where to get this info?
All advice appreciated
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Posted By David Whaley
Antony,
The tool I use is PAS 79 Fire risk assessment - guidance and a recommended methodology. It costs around a £100, it comes with a CD containing all the forms.
Hope this helps
David
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Posted By shaun mckeever
I visited the above website and did not see anything there that would constitute a suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment. The example fire risk assessment is a series of questions can act as a prompt but in no way can can the form be classed as an acceptable fire risk assessment. I would stick to the advice given above and use PAS 79. It may not be perfect but it addresses section 9(7)(a) better than the example given on the website above.
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Posted By Ashley Wood
Yes, PAS79 2007 is the format used by professionals.
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Posted By GeoffB4
And, of course, the regs were designed to be implemented by professionals!!!
I bought this standard (at what I consider to be a high price) willing to be influenced by it - but for me it just doesn't work, and I consider the purchase a waste of money.
To you Shaun, to make a general statement:
"I visited the above website and did not see anything there that would constitute a suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment. The example fire risk assessment is a series of questions can act as a prompt but in no way can can the form be classed as an acceptable fire risk assessment."
seems to me to be quite arrogant - because surely it depends on what is being assessed, the size, the complexity, the area, the activities ......... For a large number of premises the information could be taken from that website and used to compile an adequate risk assessment - that is fact Shaun.
OK you're a professional, but I would wager you don't use that standard either. So in the end it is what suits the individual assessor - whether it be a published standard, or a website, or even heaven forbid, from our own skills formed from trainig, experience, plagiarism and so on.
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Posted By shaun mckeever
Geoff
It may seem arrogant to you but I am speaking from knowing what has been rejected by Fire Authorities and what has been accepted.
In your own reply you go on to identify precisely what is wrong. The form does not identify critical details such as number of persons at risk, size or complexity of the place being assessed etc. It does provide for details that are required by section 9(7)(a) of the RRO, particularly what control measures are in place as well as what measures that need to be taken. So a yes/no form that requires you to provide more detail where the answer is 'no' does not provide sufficient detail. It needs detail even where the answer is yes.
I did say that it can act as a prompt which is also what you say. If you look at the article I referred to in a previous posting the judge ruled that fire risk assessments require a more professional approach. That does not mean only a professional can undertake FRA's but that those who do undertake them must have a much better understanding of fire and fire safety.
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Posted By GeoffB4
But Shaun, even you are not using the standard you recommend!! So you have to allow others to do the same and have different opinions.
We differ completely on this. A two room portacabin is a completely different assessment from a 40 apartment sheltered housing block with a completely different skill set. Yet your approach is to hire a professional to do both.
It shows a lack of commercial awareness. For those us who have worked for many years in commercial environments and who have an appreciation of the costs and hardships most companies face(and due to get harder in the future)we need to temper our 'ideals' and work in the real world.
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Posted By shaun mckeever
Geoff, I find your comments very puzzling. I do not advocate hiring professionals. Look at my previous posts. What I say is that whoever undertakes a fire risk assessmet must clearly understand what it is they are undertaking. My experience is that most people are not fully aware of the fire safety design in a building.
Take for example a building I have just completed in central London. I designed the fire engineering in it. On the face of it it is a simple office block, 8 storeys above ground but because of the nature of the building the fire engineering has been very tricky and has pushed the boundaries. I can almost gaurantee that most 'fire risk assessors' will not understand the smoke control strategy so they will not recognise when something is wrong when they carry out their fire risk assessment. This is critical to life safety.
I do not use PAS 79 as I do have a clear understanding of the subject but for anyone who does not then using PAS 79 will be far better than using the yes/no form. For the building I described above I have produced a bespoke fire risk assessment form to be used by whoever undertakes the risk assessment. PAS 79, tick box or yes/no forms or any other off the shelf fire risk assessment form will not suffice for that building.
As for having commercial awareness, well I would not be employed on the large scale projects that I am working on if I did not.
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Posted By GeoffB4
Shaun, you persistently advocate professional fire risk assessors on this forum.
To say you must have commercial awareness otherwise...... I guess that may fit for you and I apologise if I'm wrong but have you had a job in manufacturing? Or any company where money is the bottom line? You don't come across as being that way minded - again that may be my mistake.
The fact is I've come across at least three fire officers in two different LFAs over the last two years where this is clearly not the case. And the 'advice' given is 100% contradictary, expensive and without foundation and has cost clients far more than it should.
Of course it may be I don't understand :-))))
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Posted By shaun mckeever
Geoff please re-read my previous posts. You will see I do not persistently advocate professional fire risk assessors. I persistently advocate that people know what they are doing.
I have worked both sides of the fence, I used to be a firefighter and became the Station Officer of the watch that lost their previous Station Officer in a fire at Kings Cross. If you are not familiar with that fire then just google it. I have lost colleagues in fire and I have seen the tragic consequences of fire.
I now work as the principal fire engineer for a large construction company on large scale projects in the middle east and the uk. The bottom line is critical to our clients and if I was costing them more money than I should then I would soon be out on my ear.
So as you can see I have experience from both sides of the fence. But, coming back to the original thread, the trouble is inexperienced risk assessors actually cost their company more money than using experienced (not necessarily professional) fire rik asessors but, more important than that, they are also more likely to miss critical life safety issues such as the smoke control strategy I mentioned earlier. Hence my continued advocacy that fire risk assessors must know what they are undertaking. This does not mean they have to be professional fire risk assessors.
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Posted By GeoffB4
Shaun, you've answered my question about commercial awareness quite nicely. Could I suggest you now get some manufacturing/industrial awareness in the UK , to help temper your views. That's the environment most of us in this field work in.
One more, perhaps rhetorical, question. I don't understand your response and reasoning, in the context of this discussion, in mentioning taking over a deceased colleagues job.
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Posted By shaun mckeever
Yes Geoff perhaps I need soem experience in the fields you are talking about. Perhaps I might ore clearly understand why 4 firefighters died in a warehouse fire in Warwickshire, or perhaps why Fleur Lombard died in a fire, maybe I'll get a clerer understanding of what happened at Buncefield or why Britins most expensive fire at Heathrow occurred. Why limit myself to the UK perhaps look furtehr afield and see what happened at the fre at Sandoz and the environmental results of that. But why limit myself to manufacturing and environment. Why not look at nursing homes too, or perhaps hospitals such as the Royal Marsden or even nightclubs such as the Station Nightclub in the US or the Gothenberg fire on Halloween night.
Why did I pick the Kings Cross fire? Because amateurs thought they knew better and did not implement advice given to them by fire specialists. As a result I and my colleagues were directly affected. The implications of that fire and the rigid enforcement of fire safety on the underground is still being felt today.
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Posted By D. Hilton
Shaun,
Is this the same Shaun working as an associate fire engineer for PF?
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Posted By shaun mckeever
Darren
Yes it is. Do I know you?
Regards
Shaun
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Posted By GeoffB4
Well Shaun, I'd hoped I could point out to you, and that you would understand that we (fire & H&S folk), need to adopt a practical/pragmatic approach. I find that people with managerial work experience in industry grasp these principles more more easily than those whose sole working experience is in Government/LA organisations and similar eg those with no experience of commercial restraints.
I still don't understand your point about your previous experience with fires or mentioning individual fires. How is that relevant to this discussion? I hope you are not telling me you have to have first hand experience of a fire to understand the requirements and to be an assessor. If you are, it means a lot of male gynacologist will quickly be out of work.
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Posted By shaun mckeever
No Geoff. It seems you would not understand.
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Posted By 247hero
Having followed this thread closely I have to agree with Shaun. Fire risk assessment yes / no forms do not give any help with regards to smoke or fire behaviour. My (new) employer has handed me the fire risk assessment conducted by their fire equipment providers and reading it, as I have many before, I have to agree. It's one thing to be a health and safety practitioner (which I also am) but unless you have seen, felt, and experienced fire and smoke, you cannot, in my very humble opinion, conduct a comprehensive fire risk assessment because you have not seen what it can or will do. I am also a firefighter so wholly understand the dilemma faced by some businesses now faced with assessing their premises. If anything goes wrong, will a court honestly say, "Well at least you gave it a go" ? And I'm not generalising here. To those that have experience fire fighting, I am refering to those who have not.
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Posted By Antony McManus
All, thanks for the comments, some interesting discussion(s going on! As 247hero mentions, without having had fire fighting experience am I competent to carry out the FRA?
FYI, I've communicated this to my employer and notified him that yes, I will carry out the assessment but in no way will I be putting my name to it!
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Posted By Peter Farrell
The area of work I am employed in 95% of all staff are trained in fire fighting although very few of them will ever tackle a fire. The term 'reasonably practiable'still applies here. I carry out fire risk assessments although not a fire officer and then monitor along with fire officers to ensure that all control measures are being adhered to and further control measures are considered and put in place. I would say that we attempt to ensure that we do not have a fire thats why we have the control measures in the first place. Shaun and Geoff appear not to see eye to eye and in the words of Harry Hill theres only one way to sort this Fight!!!!!!!
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Posted By Mike Craven
247hero - "...unless you have seen, felt, and experienced fire and smoke, you cannot, in my very humble opinion, conduct a comprehensive fire risk assessment..."
What utter pompous rubbish! - I have been carrying out Fire Safety RAs since 1997; I was trained/instructed by a former fire-fighter/station-officer/fire brigade trainer with 20 years experience with the Essex Fire Brigade, I updated my knowledge through the IOSH Fire RA course last year; I consult with other H&S professionals - none of whom have "felt and experienced fire and smoke"; and the local Fire & Rescue service have confirmed that they are perfectly happy with my Fire RAs. I am sure that I am not the only H&S practitioner happy to do Fire RAs despite not being ex-fire brigade.
I also deliver asbestos awareness training, but don't have asbestosis or mesothelioma!
I deliver COSHH awareness training and do COSHH assessments, but have never been exposed to hazardous substances.
I have a meeting next week with our Water Hygiene person (external consultant) but have never had Legionnaires Disease. (Come to think of it, she calls herself a "Water Services Risk Assessment Manager" and I don't think she has had Legionnaires Disease either - better have a word with her about that!!)
I even do stress risk assessments despite feeling quite relaxed and calm and generally being a fairly laid back sort of guy!
Finally, a young lady has just been into my office and asked if I can do a Pregnant Workers risk assessment for her. Again, I suppose I will have to question my competency - I have never been pregnant; tend to leave that sort of thing to the wife!!
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Posted By Mitch
At the risk of prompting a barbed response it seems the difference of opinion is the perception of what is required by a fire RA. My understanding (with limited experience!) is that a Fire RA under the recent Reg's is to identify and control the causes and consequences of a fire? Some inference is given to "fire engineering" etc, surely this is the responsibility of the designer/architect, I made dammed sure it was in our new build! An assessment has to be carried out reasonably practicably not every employer, landlord has the knowledge or resources to consider building design, fire behaviour, or perhaps I have misunderstood and I am simplifying too much? Your comment would be appreciated as I completed my companies fire RA!!!!
Mitch
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Posted By IOSH Moderator
Dear All
It is clear that this topic elicits strong opinions and that there is no consensus.
Forum-users are reminded that at all times they should be polite to one another, and avoid making remarks that could cause offence.
This thread has now strayed well away from its original topic, and will now be locked by the Moderators.
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