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Posted By Tony abc jprhdnMurphy
We are currently carrying out work on a live Hotel. I spoke to the HSE and explained that this was a refurbishment/maintenance issue but is a construction under the CDM guidance. They said if the Hotel stays live it can be classed as maintenance, but could not commit to agreement on non notification. Anybody got a clue?
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Posted By Jeff Manion
We are working on a hotel, there is demarcation between user and construction operations, we issued F10 and notified.
Works are upgrading ventilation fans, removal of walls, extending bar and then relocating bar, extent of works twelve week approx, maximum of five persons working - not including construction site management.
For us err on side of caution, documentation minimal (as it should be).
JM
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Posted By CFT
Tony
Was it the HSE or their 'professional' advice line? A bit more information on the works would be handy, length of time etc but live or not, if it meets the criteria for an F10 its a notifiable project, and dependent on what you are actually doing I'll bet a pound to a pinch it is at the very least under the auspice of CDM, notifiable not withstanding.
CFT
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Posted By Richard Altoft
Tony, under CDM1994 if the enforcing authority remained as LAEHO because facility remained in use then a construction site was not created but I do not think this exception was carried over into CDM2007. Hence in my opinion construction which includes maintenance in any case (see Reg 1 for definition) is what is taking place and CDM notification (subject to days etc) is required. See also ACOP item 13 for ideas on what is NOT construction and what you are describing does not seem to be at all like those items so I suggest it is construction. Does it feel like construction with all its hazards and problems ???????? - if so CDM should be part of the solution. Err on safe side take all the benefits of CDM and treat it as CDM job, notification and all
All the best
R
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
In absolute terms all jobs are CDM jobs just some require additional appilcation of part 3, which includes notification. If notification is triggered then ALL parts of regulations apply.
Bob
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Posted By Richard Altoft
Bob, if the job is not a construction job within the definitions in CDM then CDM does not apply. Hence Tony's question.
R
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Posted By CFT
I think it may have been the word 'refurbishment that gave it away, although I do agree with you on the definition of CDM and not 'all jobs' fall into this scope; I fancy this one probably does though, based upon the information provided in Tony's original post.
The 'live' issue is the concerning one however, as the advice from the HSE as a generalism is quite incorrect.
CFT
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Posted By Tim
Tony,
Sounds like construction work, is it 30 work days or more, if so its not just notification thats an issue, the other parts of the regs kick in, including the requirement for a CDMC, H&S Plan etc
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Posted By Granville Jenkins
All commercial construction activities now come under the umbrella of the CDM 2007 Regulations - regardless of size and/or complexity of the project and this includes all activities of a maintenance nature. The only issue that needs to be addressed now is whether or not a project is notifiable; if the project is likely to run for more than 30 working days or more than 500 person days then the project becomes notifiable.
It should be noted that it is the 'project' that is notifiable and not simply the likley time that contractors will be on site - for example, once a feasibility study has been completed and a decision is made to commit to a project - it is then that time becomes of the essence.
On a personal note - I suspect that there will need to be a certain amount of case law developed before the true effect of the revised Regulations become established.
Regards
Granville
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Richard
All construction jobs are subject to CDM and in the context of Tony's question the word refurbishment is key. I seem to have missed the magic word construction out of my statement!:-)
The definitions of structure and construction are so wide that almost every activity one can reasonably contemplate involving work on or affecting a structure are likely to be construction work. If you consider the list in the CAR 2006 acop of potential candidates for training it includes the plumber, the telecoms engineer, the IT cabler and many others.
The classification for enforcement purposes that was in the 94 regs has created some misunderstandings. These resulted in a belief that somehow work in a live client area was not construction in some way. This is not now the case and we do need to remeber the widespread involvement of many organisations in construction work, primarily as client, even though they may not be regarded as part of the construction sector.
Bob
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Posted By Tony abc jprhdnMurphy
I think it needs me to be clearer. the length of time is not under question. It is notifiable.
The fact that construction work is taking place is slightly more debatable. For example if a hotel was replacing 500 light fittings as cpart of refurb, and planned the work so as not to interfere with the runnnning of the Hotel, then how can it be classed as construction?
I asked the HSE and they passed the query to a construction specialist. so far he has not replied.
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Tony
Look at the definition of construction work in the regulations. Section (a) of this definition talks of repair, upkeep etc and the changing of luminaires would fall into this category of work as they are part of the structure as they are required for the normal functioning of the structure.
It is a common mis-perception that there is no construction work being undertaken if normal operations continue. Look at it from this context - as construction work it should be planned, co-ordinated and undertaken by comptetent persons in co-operation with the activities of the hotel. So what is the problem with recogmnising it as construction work.
Bob
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Posted By Tony abc jprhdnMurphy
“construction site” includes any place where construction work is being carried out or to which the workers have access, but does not include a workplace within it which is set aside for purposes other than construction work;ie Hotel Bedroom
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Tony
The argument centres purely around whether it is construction work, not whether it is a construction site. If construction work exceeds the trigger points then notify, if not implement parts 1,2 and 4 alone. The requirement is to notify work above set points,
The definition of a site is for me ambiguous in its meaning. A construction site is a place where construction work takes place BUT it does not include workplaces which are within the site that are set aside for purposes other than construction. It also includes places to which the construction workers have access. Thus in the hotel the work area is part of a construction site but the areas in which the client is working are not part of the construction site. However temporary, the construction work occupies an area in the building, or several, which are then sites for that transient period of time in which construction work is done.
What the definition was meant to exclude was those major sites that had specialist work shops built for the purpose of manufacturing elements for the structure.
Bob
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Posted By Tony abc jprhdnMurphy
Bob
you have missed the point somewhat
The client is asking for advice and guidance on this, not my oppinion. as the HSE are unclear, and as this site is generally full of ambiguous queries I wanted to put him straight. My understanding is that changing 500 light bulbs in Hotel rooms over 6 weeks cannot possibly come under CDM..or am I going daft?
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Posted By Jay Joshi
Just to remind all that the HSE Infoline that some use is not the HSE as such--therefore if there is a complex inquiry, it is most likely that the HSE Infoline would not be in a position to give detailed/specific advice!
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Tony
Light bulbs does not equal light fittings they are two separate animals - We can only comment on the basis of the information offered. So what you are asking about in order to advise your client is whether undertaking relamping over a six week period is notifiable or not.
You have now made the work outside of the general definition of construction work because you are undertaking a simple replacement of a consumable item, not involving disassembly and removal of parts, the focus of attention as opposed to making the changing of the fittings, ie the luminaires, the description of the work. If the question had been precisely worded originally it would have shortened this thread considerably.
Bob
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Posted By Tony abc jprhdnMurphy
Not really because I was giving you an example and not quoting an exact work activity.
The question still remains that the client wants advice and guidance (not your opinion) on the issue of CDM and notification appointment of CDMC etc. I did not call the HSE helpline I spoke to the HSE direct and I explained the issue to them. They were unable to commit and my point about "ambiguity" in relation to notification remains. The replacement of light bulbs was a bit flippant but carries the same level of ambiguity. It would actually take a rocket scientist to explain the sequence of events in this particular instance, which is why I didnt go into it too deeply. I did go into detail with the HSE and their lack of response highlights that the issue is not as clear as some would think.
In fact I think all such work over 30 days/500 person days should be notifiable but clients dont particularly like spending money when they can get away with it, something that spoils the relationship, particularly if I give them the wrong advice
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Posted By Mitch
What are the potential penalties if you fail to notify when the HSE deem you should (probably applied retrospectively as a result of an accident?)
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Tony
If it is construction work then CDM applies and if it crosses the triggers then notify. The issue of client activities is not an issue affecting whether or not it is construction work.
If I change an indicator bulb on a panel I am replacing a consumable item and it is not a construction activity. If I remove the panel from the wall then it is construction.
Bob
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Posted By P.R
Tony,
Your example of replacing 500 light fittings (luminaires) is construction under the definitions. therefore if the works would take more than 30 days or 500 person days it would need to be notified. If, as in your second example, lamps were being changed, this would not fall under construction, so would not be, nor become, notifiable.
Regards
Pete
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Posted By Tony abc jprhdnMurphy
After all that it is notifiable. The HSE did not come back to me either.
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Did you really think they would while they are keeping low after the new F10 debacle.
Bob
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