Posted By Timothy Borrow
My client has recently taken delivery of an LPG powered Forklift and wishes to store the fuel tanks inside his factory unit. Does anybody know the maximum storage volumes permissible indoors, the maximum container sizes and any other conditions and restrictions which must be met.

Posted By Malcolm Greenhouse
I asssume you have cheked out the following link:-
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/chis5.pdf

It points out that the storage is better outside because of the need for adequate ventilation. It also suggests to minimise the risk by the second choice of reduction in the risk hierarchy i.e. only have the minimum required amount in store at any one time.

Don't forget to let the local fire brigade know you are storing them and provide them with a location detail so that they know where they are in the event of a fire.

Mal

Posted By Timothy Borrow
Many thanks for the responses guys. I had already visited the web site but it shed no light. I agree that storage outside is preferable. His supplier has advised that small quantities can be stored inside but has not specified any conditions. I know the HSE guide SC8 for retail covers storage up to 400Kg and obviously LPG can and is stored indoors in retail outlets. In the absence of any further info, I will suggest a steel container, minimal volumes and an inert environment. Thanks for the advice on the fire brigade, good point!

Posted By Pete48
Timothy, I strongly recommend that you read the response from MP once again and take his advice. Get hold of the codes or talk with a major supplier of LPG, not the local retailer. They will be happy to provide you with some standard information sheets I am sure.

I can assure you that you are at risk of completely misinterpreting the level of risk and therefore an appropriate level of control or indeed the correct controls.

Inert environment????? Are you really suggesting placing a number of pressurised gas cylinders in a closed container, inerting that environment and saying that is a necessary risk control?

I see LPG cylinders stored in the open air everyday, all upright and in secure but open cages, on concrete or other surfaces that drain away surface water to avoid the cylinders being stored in standing water and have clear information and warning signs on them, with only authorised personnel allowed access.
The last time I went past my local depot, I estimate there were about 2000 stored in the yard, both full and empty.
That doesn't quite fit with your assessment controls does it?
One of the key storage controls is good ventilation. If that can be provided indoors, then there is no reason why cylinders cannot be stored indoors. You will after all be using the cylinders indoors and I guess that more than one FLT would be in use?
It does, of course, require careful assessment before agreeing it as acceptable. On the other hand, the outside storage does give good ventilation almost, but not always, by default which is why it is a better option unless there are other reasons to store indoors.

Posted By Timothy Borrow
Many thanks Pete48 for your response and advice. I am grateful for all input and not at all perturbed by the strength of feeling in any particular feedback, I believe it's all well meaning. You are absolutely right and I couldn't agree more, that storing outside with all appropriate controls is the most practical and common method, however the advice already received by my client (from c****, the well known "hoover" supplier), was that the cylinders may be stored inside his business unit. They did not however give any guidelines, which is what he requires from me. As you know it is also common practice to store LPG indoors, I am just trying to establish the limits and conditions permissible. Perhaps I should get hold of Code of Practice 7, but £46.00!! I thought that's why forums were invented!

Posted By Halesowen Baggie
MP
Are you sure the Cop from the LPGA has the full weight of an approved code of prctice?

Posted By Timothy Borrow
Halesowen Baggie, The COP replaces the Guidance Note CS 8, which was the HSE's guidance on retail storage of small volumes of LPG. Does anyone have a copy of the COP 7?

Posted By MP
Halesowen Baggie -

Yes it does. I have been with plenty of HSE Inspectors at gas storage facilities (big and small) and they regularly quote this CoP.
There are a few words to this effect in the preface of the document as they (LPGA) acknowledge the HSE as contributors / advisors.

It is only LPG that is regulated to this extent however.

Other compressed gases (even oxygen, acetylene and hydrogen) are not regulated at all.

The British Compressed Gases Assoc (BCGA) publish lots of similar guidance for compressed gas users, but although very similar in content and brimming with best practice, etc. the content is not "enforceable" in the same way as the LPGA tome.

Hope this helps

Regards
MP

Posted By Halesowen Baggie
MP
No it doesnt,
HSE quote various guidance notes, it doesnt mean they are approved codes of practice!

Posted By MP
I'm with Pete48 on this

A few FLT LPG cylinders is not a huge hazard.

With good practice, i.e. check valves are shut, training to change the cyinders, impact protection, storage away from the possibility of leaks collecting below ground, etc. I don't see a huge issue. Your insurers may differ but that is a different case.

Just as an aside, in my experience, the major problem with external LPG storage is security and protection from the traveling community. Those orange cylinders have a truly magnetic effect. Consider what other damage may be done by insurgents whilst they are on site too.

You will need to consider site security and location in regard to fences and site boundary, lighting, etc.

I'd be looking at the minimisation of stocks as the gas companies all do next day delivery. There will be extra costs in terms of delivery charges but balance that against inurance premiums and construction of cages, etc.


Hope this helps

MP

Posted By MP
Halesowen
OK, let me put it this way.

If you have a big enough incident involving LPG and it is proven that the advice in the LPGA CoP was not followed, the prosecution would be based on failing to follow the best industry practice as endorsed by the HSE.

It's effectively the same as an ACoP inasmuch if you choose not to follow the advice you will have to convince the court your actions had complied with the Law.

I have seen INs quoting this document.

Regards

MP

Posted By MP
Let me send you a hair to split

Posted By Roger White
You dismiss the advice of the Company Insurers if you don't care about your business. Generally insurers insist that unless you follow best practice then they will not accept the risk. Bye-bye business!

The ACOP referred to in this thread relates to the storage of the little LPG cylinders that you find in DIY stores for use with blowlamps and the likes. It would surprise me if any insurance company would cover you for the storage inside a factory of the quantity of 18kg cylinders (normal FLT size) necessary to keep a FLT going for a week (in an 8 hour working day they use a cylinder per day).

As regards new legislation it is ALWAYS necessary to carry out a risk assessment. Only if the RA identifies that there is an insignificant risk do you take no action, but the RA itself is always necessary.

Posted By David Bannister
The most common location for internal LPG cylinder storage appears to be in the loading bay. The reasons cited are available space, ventilation and ease of access for fire fighting.

Against this is the frightening and forseeable scenario of a cylinder being hit and pierced by a FLT or truck.

My advice is always to go for external secure storage in line with the published guidance, unless this is not practicable, when I would accept a couple of spares in the premises, in a safe, agreed location. As a previous poster has said, suppliers generally offer a very rapid service. The same applies to all other bottled gasses, not only fuels.

If your insurers are being unreasonable, challenge them to justify their position. If still no joy, get a new one. They are queuing up to do business at present. Most are reasonable, most have experienced and knowledgeable people working for them, most will accept a well-argued case for a particular course of action. Few will cancel cover mid-term although they may exclude property losses from certain causes. I speak from experience.

Given the recent media-led witch hunts following tragic deaths of fire fighters, it is doubtful whether Officers would send their fire fighters in to areas where gas cylinders are known to be involved in a fire. If acetylene, you can expect a wide exclusion zone for a minimum of 24 hours.

Posted By MP
Good grief is this still going?

Just out of interest, I actually have a copy of the 2004 LPGA CoP 7 in front of me now (How sad - it's gone 20:00hrs). There is a forward by Nick Starling Chair of HSC Advisory Committee on Dangerous Substances.

In it he repeats almost verbatim the wording from the front page of HSE ACoPs and Guidance notes.

He also says "HSE inspectors seeking to secure compliance with the law may refer to this guidance as illustrating good practice"

He goes on to say "The HSE believes that the contents of this Code demonstrate good practice in the LP Gas industry and commends its use"

It may well not be an "approved" Code of Practice, but as I believe I said in my original post "It has the weight of an HSE ACoP"