Posted By Martin Thorpe
We've gone down the route of recording accidents (and incidents) electronically with information stored centrally on a database.

We took the decision a couple of years ago to remove accident treatment books from our offices as we wanted everyone to record them electronically and didn’t want to discourage the reporting of accidents with two separate forms to fill in.

Very occasionally, a first aider gives treatment to an individual after they have suffered a non-workplace accident (e.g. fallen off their bike on the way to work or tripped over on a public path on their way back from lunch). The question has been asked if first aiders should record the treatment they've given (especially if given to a member of the public or similar third party).

For those with similar electronic reporting systems, do your first aiders record the treatment given?

If so, how?

Posted By Martin Thorpe
We'd always discount them from the company figures if not work-related.

But should we record electronically or re-introduce a data protection act-compliant accident treatment book?

What to others do?

Posted By Adam Worth


We DO NOT record that type of first aid treatment!


DOH
Right discount the fist one - Mods delete it for me please and this line so i don't look silly! :)

Posted By Alan Nicholls
I may be wrong but First aiders trained for the workplace (First aid at work regs) should not be treating Joe public, unless Paramedic or Nurse ,Doctor.
Things may have changed since my certificate lapsed.

Regards Alan N

Posted By MickN
As far aas reporting goes I wouldn't record it in the company file as it's not work related. I would, however, record it elsewhere (personal diary for example) so that all the details were there in case of subsequent legal action.

Interestingly I heard that doctors, nurses and 1st aiders would be protect by what is referred to as a "good samaritan" defence. Obviously this comes from litigation where the aforementioned are sued by people they have treated in good faith, for example at a road traffic accident.

Bottom line: as long as you treat someone in good faith and stay within the boundaries of your training you'll be ok.

Mick

Posted By Amjad Ata
We are using an electronic system for recording of incidents.
We have an incident category called First Aid Case: When an employee/Lawful visitor/contractor get injured in the workplace & the injury is minor (required fist aid treatment only). If such incident happened it should be reported to the system after the response to injury - it will be counted under reactive performance measurement.
At the same time we keep with every single first aid box log that to be filled by the first aider whenever he used it as result of response to First Aid Case or when assist non-work related accident, so the use of the first aid box will be recorded but the accident is not (because it is not work-related)

Note:
Where I am working we do not have legal requirements for accident reporting.

Opinion:
Once the first aider is qualified then I believe s/he has to give his assistance whenever required

Amjad

Posted By Mike Craven
If the HSE (or LA) inspector asks to see the accident book, you show it to them - it makes no difference whether the book is in traditional hard paper copy "book" form or an electronic database!!

It is perfectly acceptable to use electronic databases for accident recording purposes and may of us do, and will continue to, use them.

However, the database and its format and the design and format of any accident reporting forms, etc should be cleared with the Department for Work & Pensions.

Mike

Posted By Andrew Robertson-Böber
It is worth clarifying that if you are endorsing your First Aider gives treatment under remit of your business then your should record this as it is within context to ‘work’. Regardless of it being either employee or 3rd Patry treated in all incidents a civil or criminal claim can arise – notwithstanding the allusion many foster that because their has been nothing been noticeably successful does not mean that there is not a legal recourse for this to occur. You have to remember that for a number of years people fostered the same allusion that 3rd party claims against bouncy castles would not be successful until the recent damages awards to a case earlier this year (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/...england/kent/7389775.stm).

One must remember that a "good Samaritan" defense is only as good as the lawyer presenting it and presiding Judge / Magistrate overhearing it. Public Interest is altogether arbitrary. When you underscore this sort of advice it reads “oh, you’ll be okay as it’s never happened before you know” – hardly unassailable.

What concerns me is any inference that should any employer not be bothered by their First Aiders providing assistance to 3rd party, perhaps through suggestive indifference it has been behaviorally encouraged, they wouldn’t then endorse this under the remit of the First Aider role therefore covering them under the companies Public Liability Insurance. It has been for this reason that St. Johns, St. Andrews, Red Cross et al. offer a ‘buy in’ to a Public Liability insurance policy for First Aiders – though also to cover them should they practice this out ‘in the streets’. It would be ethically and morally bankrupt for any employer to not recognize their First Aiders in the treatment of 3rd parties in context to work.

One should put into context the vicarious liability a employer has to their site and the duty of care they have to those within it. This is why that Public Attractions such as Theatres, Museums, Cinemas, Pubs, Concerts, Festivals, Sports venues and, indeed, Zoos etc. have First Aid facilities for members of the public. If you look through the HSE Purple Book you’ll get a gauge of this.

The empathies of whether there should or should not be a ‘legal requirement’ for recording accidents is really rather secondary to the issue of ‘best practice’. What you are endeavoring to achieve, regardless of what format you record it in, is identifying trends and preventing accidents. Regardless of it being an employee or 3rd party you should record it on those grounds alone. Quite regardless of this you will also notice that within RIDDOR it identifies ‘Public’ – which I’d suggest is legally reason enough to record 3rd party accidents and treatment.

For myself, I even record medical data from our overseas fieldworkers. It provides not only valuable information for me to ascertain potential issues and training needs but extends the concepts of what ‘duty of care’ means – which, in context to fieldwork, is covered within BS8848 anyway.

Should anyone of you work within a public venue then you will appreciate the number of claims that can be pushed against your organizations – for that reason not only recording but the accident investigation is imperative to this process.


Andrew Böber
CMIOSH FRSH FRGS

Posted By Wendi Gibson
Having just attended my refresher course at St John's, they give free insurance for non-work first aid given by thoese who successfully complete their course. In effect they make you an associate member of the St John's Ambulance organisation.
Whether other training organisations do this I am not sure. So from the point of view of the first aider, if he/she has this cover from St John's then he would be insured to treat a non-work accident/injury.

Posted By John Harrison
My understanding and practice for years without problem is this:
Accidents to employees while at work - Accident book (or electronic system)
Accidents to Contractors on employers site - Accident book (or electronic system)and tell Contractor's employer.
Retreatmentof accidents at work - separate Treatment Book (or separate electronic)include employee i.d.
Injuries to employees on route to work - Treatment Book(or separate electronic).
Treatment of member of the public - if it happens on the site - Accident book, if not on the site and first aider is 'at work' - Treatment Book including time of day the injury occurred, nature of the injury and treatment given, person's name and address if they will give it.

All RIDDOR 95 reporting requirements being followed. Important to read and understand how these apply to people 'at work' and 'not at work'. And Data Protection - limit access to info' etc.

And yes the 'good samaritan' is a defence and protection - if they follow the protocols First Aiders shouldn't need liability insurance even for e.g. chest compressions, if they are done properly ribs probably will be broken etc.