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Posted By Crim
I have compiled a construction phase plan for a principal contractor and emailed the plan to the CDM-C for approval. The CDM-C has promised to approve the plan however the plan does not contain the SWMP and if I can confirm the SWMP will be available my plan will be approved.
My understanding of the SWMP is that the client has to write the SWMP and pass it to the P C for monitoring on site. The SWMP is not under CDM and there is no requirement for the SWMP to be included in the construction phase plan.
Am I right? I think so.
Next point - does the CDM-C have any duties regarding the SWMP and is the CDM-C right to queery whether there is a SWMP?
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Posted By Stewart Campbell
Hi Crim,
I support your take on SWMP. The client must prepare the initial SWMP and the PC will then manage, monitor and develop it as the project developes. In practice I expect the Client and PC to have to cooperate at an early stage in order to produce a practical SWMP.
The CDMC has a duty to ensure that the client knows his duties under CDM 2007. The CDMC also has a duty to help the client establish the PC's competence. The SWMP regs refer to the PC. The PC is a legal body under CDM 2007 with specific duties. Thus the CDMC needs to assess the PC competence in relation to SWMP in order to advise the client.
I hope that this will open a debate as I am finding this a particularly hot topic at the moment
Stewart
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Posted By Bob Youel
C: You are correct: A CDMC has no place in SWMPR and yes the SWMP is a plan that has nothing to do with the CDM regs whatsoever its via a stane alone law in itself as is asbestos etc which is also found via CDM works
However common sense would say that an over reaching plan covering all aspects would be suitable with adequate operating systems therein operated by competent persons
PC's need to know the CDMC's contract conditions with the client as the client may have given the CDMC more duties than is required in the CDM regs
Forgive me all my competent CDMC friends and those who are CDMC's with adequate competent re environmental areas but; -
This is another area that will be lost to CDMC's irrespective of their competence so PC's MUST address this area with their clients ASAP as it is the PC that has all the main duties re SWMPR NOT any CDMC!
Additionally I call on H&Safety experts to address clients re this area as HSWA74 applies irrespective of CDM etc
My definition of competence is that a person must be a member of an approved and recognised body, have academic qualifications and real experience re the area concerned
Its a fact that a construction management system that an H&S / env expert creates comes around again via a CDMC!
I have just finished one small £4M project where initially the competence re env areas was very very poor and the CDM areas were almost as bad! irrespective of other laws/issues
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Posted By Stewart Campbell
Crim,
In answer to some of your questions
The SWMP can be seperated from the CPP. No need for it to be include.
The CDMC should be asking the Client for the initial SWMP. I think this is something that would be best included in the Pre Construction Information Pack.
Stewart
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Posted By Crim
But should it be in the Pre Const Info? It is not CDM as we all seem to agree.
The Principal Contractor issue is debatable - what if a project does not fall into the notifiable criteria but has a value above £300,000.? A SWMP is required but no requirement under CDM for CDMC or PC? In this case the Regs require a PC under SWMP but not the same duies etc. as for CDM?
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Posted By Bob Youel
S is correct a CDMC needs to be able to assess the competence of a PC but that is via the CDM regs not via SWMPR as CDMC's are not mentioned in SWMPR
Again common sense should say that we work together but who then confirms to the client that the CDMC is competent to evaluate the environmental areas re the PC?
Again I ask my CDM friends to foregive me but time and again many CDMCs are comissioned by clients where their expertise is in another area and not the one that the client is working with e.g. underground plant rooms
I interviewed a small number of CDMC's recently re underground plant rooms and whilst many had very very good competence re many parts of the project they were very lacking in other areas and the client was very reluctant to change the CDMC as the project progressed to ensure competence was continuous so we ended up with a CDMC who once the eletro/mechanical areas were involved never attended a meeting nor visited site
The client just quoted the CDM regs re the examples given as to what type of competence is wanted - a big hole in the regs as already noted by many
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Posted By Stewart Campbell
It seems to be the responsibility of the client, but as Bob points out most of the duties lie with the PC or contractor.
This said it must then be up to the contractor who should know about the law to seek to resolve a workable SWMP with the client.
In notifiable project I still believe that the CDMC will have to play a part to help with cooperation on the matter of SWMPs.
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Posted By Arran Linton - Smith
Crim,
Strictly speaking the CDM-C does not have any duties regarding the site waste management plans. It is clearly the client’s responsible for ensuring that the plan is prepared before construction work begins.
If you look at page 8 of the DEFRA document titled ‘Non-statutory guidance for site waste management plans’, this suggests that it is the designer who should write the SWMP on behalf of the client. There is absolutely no mention of the CDM-C.
These regulations are going to be a hot subject. For example how many principle contractors do you know who audit the destination of the waste that leaves their sites? If someone wants to re-use odd waste materials elsewhere such as doors or ironmongery will many SWMP have provision for this?
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Posted By Crim
Arran,
I think I totally agree with your comments re the SWMP?
The P C I have done the C P Plan for has an excellent procedure in place for managing all waste from this site, and has contacted the client to advise accordingly. The P C does however need the client to write the SWMP.
I agree that not all recycled waste will be entered as the programme moves along but they do have good intentions.
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Posted By Simon Priest
Hi Crim,
I think the CDMC has spotted the reference to the SWMP in CDM Appendix 3 (CPP Template) and probably wants to see a reference to it in the PC's CPP. This may be quite easy to resolve, however, your question is still valid as to whether it is a 'show stopper' in terms of the CPP and its adequacy. It is suggested that many CDMC's would not be quite so rigid.
One little point, the CDMC would not approve the CPP, he would however advise the Client of its adequacy in accordance with Regulation 20(1(a).
Simon
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Posted By Arran Linton - Smith
Under the The Site Waste Management Plans Regulations 2008, there is no such role as the CDM-C, however if I were a Principle Contractor and the CDM-C was asking us for this document at this late stage, I would suggest that they refer this matter to the Client who is responsible for this matter in the first place.
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Posted By Crim
Arron,
I enjoyed our chat and confirm this is what I have done.
You are a mine if information and I will listen to what you have to say in this forum in future.
Thanks to all who contributed, have a good weekend!
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
The CDMC and SWMP link is always going to be problematical but let us face it the CDMC is part of the design team pre tender going out. The client has a duty to draft the plan and this will continue throughout the tender period so the draft SWMP is not likely to be in the pre-construction information. Acompetent PC would expect it and be planning for waste in any case.
The draft SWMP is developed, implemented, managed, monitored and reviewed by the PC. This means the end to the PC buryingb their heads over subcontractors' waste streams and actively managing the process.
The regulations do not differentiate between domestic and non-domestic clients or notification. If the job is over £300k the client apponits a PC, purely in terms of SWMPR 08, regardless and must manage the process. The use of the CDMC is to be seen as a way that clients with notifiable work receive advice and assisance.
As far as SWMP site co-ordinators are concerned this I believe must be a site based person or else how can the process be managed. Other threads talk of training needs. These have to centred around a sound understanding of the EPA,WEEE and HWR regs as well as SWMPR. The courses I have been providing generally encompass 6 - 12 hours training dependent on previous experience.
Bob
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Posted By Crim
I've now received an email from the CDM-C advising not to start work on site without the SWMP as the PC can be prosecuted. This could mean a delayed start due to the client being slow in producing their SWMP.
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Posted By Crim
I think I know what will happen in this case.
The Client will ask the P C to write the SWMP, would it be in order for the P C to accept this responsibility?
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
The offence concerning the lack of SWMP on site at project start is a joint one on both client and PC. If the client fails the other is not entitled to start in any case as both commit the offence.
In reality the SWMPR add some additonal duties to the existing Duty of Care requirements. These additions amount to forcasting, monitoring and reviewing; all other aspects already existed under waste legislation. Any competent PC should have some form of waste management plan in any case and this can be developed into a workable SWMP. Whatever the client considers in the draft has to be subject to the real time needs and abilities of the contractor. Thus while the client will envisage separation of certain waste streams the PC will determine precisely how this will be done and evidenced.
Bob
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Posted By Crim
Now I'm thinking ............... Under the SWMP regs the client has to write the SWMP and then appoint a principal contractor to manage the SWMP.
At present the client has appointed a PC under the CDM regs. As I see it there can be 2 PCs, one under CDM and another under SWMP.
If the CDM PC goes ahead with the project can he be prosecuted under SWMP regs if he has not been appointed under those regs?
My head is beginning to hurt now!
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Posted By Crim
Bob, I must have been writing as you posted. I still think I have a relevant point as there is no guarantee who will be appointed as PC under the SWMP regs? (Yes probably the CDM PC but not necessarily).
You have earlier mentioned SWMP applying whether CDM or not.
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Crim
The SWMPR are at fault but it is clear that the SWMP PC is intended to be the same person as the CDM PC.
The client prepares a DRAFT SWMP not the final SWMP for the site. The regs envisage thus that the PC manages the plan and finalises it to a working document.
Bob
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Posted By Arran Linton - Smith
Crim,
Just to add another aspect to this subject, these regulations do not apply Scotland!
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