Posted By jayjay Dave, I agree with you regarding the accreditation part and that it doesn't necessarily have to be PASMA/IPAF, however most contractors dictate that this is what they'll accept only and that is unfortunate. As to a question you asked GeoffB4 earlier regarding IOSH training i would hope IOSH manage their contractors along the same line as we would on site etc by sending pre tender questionnires and asking for evidence of training,competencies etc. Regards, JJ

Posted By ClaireL High risk groups such as mining and offshore are still specialist inspectors. However, the HSE now operates in very different ways. Most regions (but not all) have specialist construction divisions where the construction inspectors have undergone specialist training but don't be misled into thinking they know everything. It depends on how long they've been a construction inspector and generally the HSE forces people out of Construction sooner or later as it likes it's inspectors to be well rounded so to speak. There used to be specialist agricultural inspectors, engneering inspectors etc but most groups in the HSE are now just general groups (though some regions have retained specialisms - for example Ag in Wales). But again the level of experience of the inspector varies and again they tend to move people around groups to get a more well rounded inspector. When I joined it was still in dedicated groups but that changed with the introduction of the Target Areas (work at height, workplace transport, slips and trips etc) as they no longer felt they needed industry experienced inspectors as the inspectors could apply the same principlals to any industry. Outrageous in my opinion. I was being asked to go into an engineering factory and not look at machines because it wasn't a target area and they weren;t even training new inspectors in machinery safety. Outrageous! People think that HSE inspectors know it all but they don't. They think the HSE inspectors have huge amounts of experience but they don't necessarily (though some have huge amounts of experience). In fact it is HSE policy not to take on anyone with existing H&S experience so they can mold them in their own way. what they do have those is fantastic training and enormous knowledge bases to draw on. So don't knock them completely! Because my friend in in Construction Sector (the group that specifically liase with industry and set the standards) her experience and knowlede is very good and extensive. I learnt loads in the HSE but I have also learnt loads since leaving the HSE. I think I'm more well rounded for leaving!

Posted By ClaireL "Or perhaps Claire we are merly professionals who actually know what we are talking about?" ...implying I don't. "offer guidance based on what you know, not what you heard or read somewhere" ...saying I don't actually know what I'm talking about. "I thank my lucky stars I do not have to rely on your guidance when I need professional help. " ...no confusion there. "I am trying to highlight the importance of actually knowing what you are talking about when you post here." ...and again. Shall I go on??? But as you said, back on thread, HSE policy should be the same whatever office you contact. If they don't give you the same answer then fine contact me directly and I will contact my friend to find out why everyone isn't singing from the same hymm sheet. I still can't understand why you are so aggrieved with me for posting what I was told by someone from within the HSE. Why shoot the messenger? If I can't take the word of an ex-colleague, HSE official and friend then who's word can I trust?

Posted By Martyn Hendrie Without calling anyone's professional abilities into question. I cannot see how the HSE can stipulate that only training from one trade body is acceotable. The law requires employers to ensure that their staff and operatives are competent. How they make that decision is their choice and they must stand or fall on that choice if taken to court. I think it is true that trade and industry accredited courses are less likely to be challenged and because of that they are used by many companies, but at a greater financial cost. Like other training providers we are happy to provide externally accredited courses but see no problem with developing a bespoke course for a client.

Posted By Martyn Hendrie Claire, My posting was meant to indicate my opinion in relation to the accreditation of courses not the individual training provider operating under licence. e.g. A PASMA accredited training provider is using the standing of the trade body to give his/her course some industry recognition. That does not mean that PASMA have exclusive rights to authorise/accredit all tower scaffold training.

Posted By Martyn Hendrie Dave, Accreditation normally involves a check on the qualifications and experience of the trainers being used, as well as registering them to lecture on the organisations accredited course. If a trainer leaves it does not affect his competence but it would mean he (as an individual) would not be accredited to run those courses. Unless of course he goes through the accreditation process in his own right.

Posted By D H Well said Garry - some of it was uncalled for. Hope Claire got an apology??? Dave

Posted By ClaireL Unfortunately no I didn't get an apology. I didn't really expect one. Thanks for the acknowledgement though. Although I now feel very disinclined to give my opinion on subjects for fear of th potential backlash. Very sad. :-(

Posted By Ian Chamberlain A few points, i am a PASMA trainer and also deliver my Companies own tower course and the biggest reason is money, the PASMA course is a full day and twice the cost of our own tower course which a half day. I am competent to deliver PASMA courses and therefore could you question my delivery of our own tower course? As to the HSE accreditation issue, HSE recommend 3t and advanced guardrail techniques for erection but they can not state you have to undergoe PASMA training, and NO inspector could stipulate this! On the First Aid issue i am a qualified first instructor and have worked in the field for several years including time spent with St John. You have to be a registered provider to train and issue 4 day courses and refresher training, you can run one day courses and issue you own certificates for those at the moment but not four day and refresher. Although this will change in Oct 2009 when you will have to be registered. Some companies will let you run your own courses and buy certificates from them at a small cost, you run the course under their license. Ian