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Posted By Chris M Jones
Hi All,
Hoping someone could advise on a situation I am faced with at work. A colleague has received his new company car, a Fiesta instead of a Focus which used to be the company car for his grade. He is a large gentleman (6'5") and is well built (not overweight), he is finding it a bit of a tight squeeze in the Fiesta which means he gets various amounts of discomfort (pins & needles etc). Does anyone know if my company is obliged to provide a car better suited to the gentleman. I was thinking this may come under PUWER but can't see anything that would be specific to this problem.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Regards
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Posted By Ian Blenkharn
Unbelieveable that such an issue might be raised here, particularly attempting to use H&S legislation to wangle a bigger car.
Take away the car
Let him take more exercise
Loose weight
Problem solved
Has the world gone mad?
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Posted By WTaylor
Most modern Ford Fiestas have adjustable steering wheels and seating. Except in extreme cases this should be sufficient.
When you say "well built (not overweight)" what do you mean? Is this "bodybuilder type" or "a bit chubby but not obese"?
Another question which springs to mind is how long does it take for the pins and needles to occur? How often is he taking breaks?
According to the PUWER ACOP, motor vehicles fall under the scope of PUWER 1998 (provided they are not privately owned). So the car would be covered under reg. 4. The ACOP also specifically says that ergonomics should be a consideration in selection. Also let's not forget the general duties under HASAWA and the Management Regs.
So yes in principle you could argue that legally the employer should consider his build when selecting his car.
But to be honest my initial reaction is to agree with Ian's response!
Have fun!
Will
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Posted By MP
Get him to take a cash allowance instead of the car
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Posted By Brett Day
I would say yes that ergonomics should be considered with regards company cars, sadly many companies take the view that has been expressed here on this thread.
I'm 5'7" however, I am a little longer in the body and shorter in leg than is normal for my height and I have found that certain cars with a blue oval on cause me to have pins and needles from the seat squab pressing into the back of my knees after about 30 minutes, other makes and models of cars haven't presented this problem.
Regards
Brett
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Posted By Bob Youel
An employee at one company I worked for was 6'7" and he's was the shortest of a small group known as 'the tall mans group' so when procuring a vehicle etc we had to account for this - However the purchasing dept did not like it as they were looking for certain 'deals' that suited them
We installed additional controls higher up on a number of machines because the team operating them were ~6'8" [yes 6'8"!] - This is not a made up story - the company is ran by a Japanese person and the staff were all Japanese in that section of the works and the company is based in the UK
the point being is that a vehicle should be suitable for the person driving it
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Posted By Kevin Brown
I've had the same problem as Brett because of restricted circulation due to the length of seat. If we accept that similar shortcomings in office seating can cause DVT why woudn't we accept the same thing is true of car seats?
The main cause of work-related death and injury is (I am reliably informed)driving on business. Maybe some of the accidents could have been prevented if drivers had been matched with cars.
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Posted By Mitch
PT cruiser or 'proper' VW beetle, loads of headroom, the only 2 I have driven comfortably
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Posted By Pete48
You could try asking the Ford technical unit people what the limits of their design are with regards to driver height. They will use some standard criteria that encompass the greater majority of us peeps but I doubt that the design would extend to a driver height of 6'5" in such a vehicle. That is not to say that is automatically unsafe to use but it may need modification to the "in use" conditions dependant on total miles per year, length of journey etc.
The ergonomic design of a vehicle interior is about more than seats and legroom.
You could also seek the help of an ergonomist to focus your case.
Good luck but don't expect any miracles, most HR and Purchasing departments still believe that a company car is a perk and that employees will always moan about them even if you give them a ......
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Posted By Haggis JM
I'm 'only' 6'2" and I've found my head touching the roof lining on some makes and models.
I must admit I'm at a loss as to how a previous responedent's comment on making the driver lose weight would affect his height!!!
Just as some cars are too large for the driver, some are also too small for comfort.
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Posted By CFT
Chris
I don't agree with Ian, the employee may be able to loose some weight (although you say he is not OW) but he can't shrink!
Fit for purpose is essential, and as you mention H&S, one should remember that the CM&CH Act will now include road related deaths within an organisation when investigating authorities are satisfied that serious breaches have occurred.
Clearly 'shoe horning' a chap who is 6'5" into a small Fiesta type car will almost certainly create difficulties for him, and if he is unable to drive the car within safe parameters he should be given a company vehicle 'FFP', alternatively as has been suggested earlier, a car allowance; he can then find a vehicle that is completely suitable.
Ergonomics is key in our industry, and the relationship between man and his machine and the ability to be trained and use it properly is indeed a health & safety issue; IMO your question is a good one and shows you have concerns for the well being of this individual & the organisation.
CFT
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Posted By Geoff Ferneyhough
Chris,
As someone who is 6ft 4" I can sympathise with your colleague. I too would not want to be squeezed into a Ford Fiesta. The Car needs to be fit for purpose for the driver.
Within my company I was able to get a car outside the normal range of vehicles due to my height.
I would suggest that you look at the Skoda Fabia as a possible alternative. As well as head room its quite tax and fuel efficient.
Regards
Geoff
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Posted By Chris M Jones
Many thanks to all for your responses, although the first response from Ian wasn't that helpful!! I hope Ian's tongue was firmly placed in his cheek!
Just to answer a couple of other queries. My colleague has a large frame to go with the 6'5", so possibly WTaylor's second description would be closer to the mark!
Also, the tingling begins after about 20 mins of driving.
Regards
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Posted By Brett Day
Pete
I used to work for Johnson Controls automotive (the company that made cars seats for Ford at the time) in thier prototype shop, the main measurement is the 'H' Point or Hip Point, which are made using a 'H' Point 90th percentile dummy (most people refered to him as Henry).
The dummy we were using was an American 90th percentile dummy, so there are some anomalies when comparing the UK and US 90th percentile bodies.
Regards
Brett
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Posted By Ian_P
You have to be careful here.
I agree that a company car has to be fit for purpose but we're not talking about "shoe horning" a 7 foot basketballer into a Smart car are we?
6'5' is not freakishly big and I would dare to say that the majority of modern cars could be adjusted to suit such a person by moving the chair, steering column etc.
Many people will see where Ian's coming from I'm afraid, and it could appear that the employee is agrieved at being supplied with a Fiesta instead of a Focus.
I would be VERY wary of using H&S as a reason and make absolutely 100% sure that it isn't just an excuse for upgrading his car. Especially when you consider that upgrading from a Fiesta to a Focus will only give him 5mm of extra headroom....... ;-)
As we all know, using safety as an excuse can have devastating effects on a safety culture, and management's confidence in it.
For the record, i am 6'4' and the missus's Fiesta has more headroom than my company Volvo. I won't be asking them to change it though!!!
Best Regards and good luck in your decision.
Ian
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Posted By Ian Blenkharn
No Chris, my tongue was not in my cheek. Not at all.
Except perhaps in the most exceptional of circumstances, and you don't claim that there are any, seeking to using H&S legislation to wangle a better company car is totally inappropriate and unworthy.
This forum is often used to heap damnation on those who use the 'H&S excuse' for all sorts of nonsense. But you are doing the same thing. You might feel comfortable doing so and feel that somehow you stand above all of the others. I disagree.
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Posted By Geoff Ferneyhough
Chris,
The point I was attempting to make was that we are all individuals and whilst the Fiesta may not be a suitable vehicle for your colleague a different make/model at the same grade of vehicle for the appointment might be.
The car I obtained wasn't on "the list" for my grade but was made avaialable because the opitions available were not suitable.
Use the H & S angle to get your colleague a car that they can drive in comfort and safety but doesn't give them a car from a higher grade.
Bearing in mind that a bigger car will increase the personal tax burden without any compensatory salary increase.
Geoff
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Posted By Chris M Jones
Thanks again for your reply Ian B. But I am relatively new to this role and was genuinely asking for advice.
I don't think he is trying to wangle a new car, he is finding it difficult driving the smaller car. I also don't believe it is an "H&S excuse for all sorts of nonsense!". I feel it is a legitimate question. The company expects him to drive in order to carry out certain aspects of his job. I thought that a company provided car is workplace equipment and I was trying to find out if people agreed with this and to what extent.
I understand that over the years H&S has been used to make some outrageous claims (criminals claiming against the owners of buildings they break into!!), but I felt this was a reasonable question.
Regards
Chris
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Posted By Pete48
Ian, that's a bit harsh isn't it? I didn't read it as trying to wangle, just asking a question. To slap it down and suggest taking away his car smacks of petty officialdom. How dare he ask such a question!.
If you can convince me either that a height of 6'5" falls within the average anthropometric measures these days or that the design criteria for a Ford Fiesta encompasses safe use by someone at 6'5", I will shut up and go away. Otherwise, surely there is at least room for sensible discussion?
If he ends up claiming a back injury and takes time off work, does it become a safety issue?
Whether the guy needs something even larger than a Focus could start a whole new thread but then I always did enjoy a bit of banter with the keepers of the company car standards.
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Posted By Chris M Jones
Geoff,
Thanks for all your input, I may well put that forward as an option (ref Skoda etc).
Regards
Chris
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Posted By Jay Joshi Refer to ROSPA guide on Choosing Safer Vehicles, but nothing explicit on car size. On page 7, it covers Comfortable fit, but this is in context of all-round visibility, vehicle controls and steering wheel wioth more specific points covered. Chris, I give your question the benfit of doubt that there could be a genuine problem, but unless I see it first hand and assess it, I do not want to comment either way. http://www.rospa.com/roa.../info/safer_vehicles.pdfI cannot trace the website link, but University of Loughboough website had an excellent webpage on adjsuting car seats etc.
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Posted By Chris M Jones
Thanks Jay.
Will have a look at the ROSPA one. I've been looking through the Loughborough Ergonomics one in my breaks today!!
Cheers
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Posted By warderic
A company vehicle should be treated as just another machine or work station. A risk assessment should be carried out and any necessary controls/procedures etc put in place. That said, the assessments should have been carried out before purchasing the car; that's in a perfect world not mine.
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Posted By Brett Day
Just to chip in again (I needed to clarify if I could discuss some bits here in an open forum), I was involved in two projects one became the Courier Combi (a Fiesta based van) and the other became the Focus (Mk I) there where big differences between them in terms of fit and levels of support.
Also for the Courier Combi, when we needed to use a person for fitting we grabbed some of the ladies in the office or someone of smaller build as per the design brief, for the Focus we grabbed a medium to large body out of the office.
How the current Fiesta and Focus compare I don't know but wouldn't be surprised if there were similar differences.
At the end of the day, get the guy in the car, look at how he sits, any gaps, pressure points etc...
If you want a bit more info Chris drop me a line.
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Posted By Dave Todd
What a fuss..........
And you wonder why H&S is mocked?
The law says " fit for purpose ".
Suitable & Sufficient.
Reasonably Practicable.
Simply give him a horse.
Or a bison.
Either will provide headroom, legroom,
and freedom from tingling hands.
After 15 minutes, he will beg you for
the keys to his Fiesta. Problem solved.
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Posted By Haggis JM
I must admit to being slightly puzzled by the ferocity of some of the responses here.
If it was any other piece of equipment, whether office or factory, everyone on this forum would be supporting the individual and roundly condeming the company for failing to take adequate measures.
Why should this change just because it is a car we're talking about?
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Posted By Chris M Jones
"What a fuss..........
And you wonder why H&S is mocked?
The law says " fit for purpose ".
Suitable & Sufficient.
Reasonably Practicable.
Simply give him a horse.
Or a bison.
Either will provide headroom, legroom,
and freedom from tingling hands.
After 15 minutes, he will beg you for
the keys to his Fiesta. Problem solved."
Interesting Response Mr Todd! But you kind of contradict yourself. You quote "fit for purpose". Would a horse (or Bison) really be suitable for travelling between 100 & 200 miles a day and including 1-2 hour visits to each site?
Thanks for the response though. Very constructive!
However, thanks to all those that have responded with genuine constructive input, for and against using H&S in this situation.
Regards
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