Posted By graeme12345
Mark, it can be any space of an enclosed nature where there is a risk of death or serious
injury from hazardous substances or dangerous conditions (eg lack of oxygen).

so if you are it is

Posted By NJS
it certainly sounds enclosed to me!

Posted By mark limon
There is no lone worker issues or hazardous substances or fumes.I have my own idea but it is always good to hear other peoples.
The process carried out creates no further hazards by it taking place in this location than it would if it was in the open.

Posted By Adam Worth
I'm confused why the urge to declassify it, by now you could have filled out the permit and written the risk assessment :) ?

Of course it's a confined space as its nature leads to an increased risk as it's hard to escape.

Imagine having a heart attack inside, how would you get out?

Imagine a fire outside - how would you get out?

Think worst case and go from there!

So as said above you need a risk assessment that considers the hazards presented by a confined space ensuring you consider things such as escape!

Thanks goodness Friday is almost over!

OH and Happy Birthday Michel Jackson - ShamoOoo!

Posted By Kenneth Patrick
There is a very clear HSE leaflet on this topic INDG 258. From Mark's description this is clearly not a Confined Space but if he reads this he will be able to determine if he has circumstances that would make it so.

Posted By Ron Hunter
I refer you to the Confined Spaces Regulations 1997 (from opsi website)
"confined space" is a defined term and means any place, including any chamber, tank, vat, silo, pit, trench, pipe, sewer, flue, well or other similar space in which, by virtue of its enclosed nature, there arises a reasonably foreseeable specified risk;

"specified risk" means a risk of -
(a) serious injury to any person at work arising from a fire or explosion;
(b) without prejudice to paragraph (a) -
(i) the loss of consciousness of any person at work arising from an increase in body temperature;
(ii) the loss of consciousness or asphyxiation of any person at work arising from gas, fume, vapour or the lack of oxygen;
(c) the drowning of any person at work arising from an increase in the level of liquid; or
(d) the asphyxiation of any person at work arising from a free flowing solid or the inability to reach a respirable environment due to entrapment by a free flowing solid.

From what you describe then ( and not knowing what the task is) I suggest that this IS NOT a confined space as defined.

Posted By Paul Leadbetter
It is without doubt an enclosed space but not necessarily a confined space (see definition above).

Paul

Posted By Pete48
An enclosed space is one that may give rise to a confined space dependant on a number of factors. I would say that the original poster is asking that question.

He has recognised that an assessment of this working space is required due to the fact that it is an enclosed space.
He has outlined specifics which he questions might rule it out as a confined space as defined in the regs and guidance (A confined space is a place which is substantially enclosed, though not always entirely, AND where serious injury can occur from hazardous substances or conditions within the space or nearby (e.g. lack of oxygen).

However, he has not told us the nature of the work that might require entry to this enclosed space. That work may indeed make this a confined space. Furthermore, we do not know what the adjacent processes or works are and which may give rise to the risk of serious injury.

So, it may be or it may not be a confined space but as Paul suggests it is definitely an enclosed space and therefore requires careful consideration.

Posted By mark limon
I purposely did not describe what the process taking place was other than to say it was not exacerbated by it taking place in the cylinder.
There are no fire,gases,,liquids,substances,processes or anything else to cause any more harm in the cylinder than they would outside in the open.
All the risk assessments that need to take place for activity outside ,around and over the cylinder are in place.
There is a new piece of kit that is being introduced that doesnt introduce any real hazards in fact it reduces them significantly
This is a change that requires a review of the current risk assessments which were last done some years ago.Since then new legislation has been introduced and this is being taken into account.
The need to possibly have to remove someone ill or injured is being taken into account,my question was and still is

"Would you define a person working inside in a steel conical cylinder approximately 15 foot high and about 12 foot diameter with holes in the bottom about a foot diameter with the only access from the top.It is completely open at the top with no gas,liquid and flowing substances to worry about.The means of access is via a ladder properly attached"

As usual there is a variety of opinions which I thank you all for.

Although I am confused a little by Adam Worths confusion

"I'm confused why the urge to declassify it, by now you could have filled out the permit and written the risk assessment :) ?"

Where in my post Adam can you glean that I have an urge to de-classiffy anything.I asked for an opinion from the many knowledgeable people on this site to make sure that not only is the risk assessment suitable and sufficient to comply with current legislation but also everything possible is taking into consideration to make the working enviroment as safe as possible.
Please read my post lines and not between them,
Mark

Posted By D H
Hi people - can we clarify a few things.

Are the holes at the bottom escape routes?
Can we safely evacuate someone who falls ill quickly and easily?
Do we employ a standby man?
Have we taken into account the WAH Regs?
Would you be happy to stand in a court of law and state this is not a confined space?

If the answer to the above questions is yes - apart from the standby man - then I suggest we have a potential high risk activity

As in all safety matters it is the perception of risk that is important and a lot of people here have stated their perception on the limited information given. But how can people give a reasoned argument on the information provided - without actually seeing the task.

Mark - you decide - your job mate.
But I would suggest before you are asking the question - you are also unsure. And the replies you have had would not stand in a court of law either.

Good luck!

Dave

Posted By Pete48
D H, I would be more than happy to meet you in court.
I think that you have, as many others often do,confused work in an enclosed space with work in a confined space. Unless life has changed greatly, confined spaces have always been about the atmosphere that may or could develop within.
I agree with your list of hazards and some of the controls but they are not specifically relevant to a discussion about a confined space(thet title of the thread). They belong in the RA for entry to an enclosed space and nothing more.

Posted By D H
Thanks people - I stand corrected

Dave

Posted By graeme12345
so waste time which = money needlessly then

Mark, as they are not already there, if you are creating any of the significant risks it is, if you are not it is'nt

Posted By Robert K Lewis
Mark

A neatly worded question in which key information is omitted. You give a single diameter rather than the two required if describing a conical space, together with an indication of wwhich is which at the top. You imply also that people will simply enter the space and fail to provide information concerning natural ventilation potential for the air in a space or for how long the entry will take place.

In free space the volume of air I breathe is irrlevant to the percentages that are present - in an enclosed space this is not so and you must provide information with a degree of precision before any judgements can be made on whether the space is confined. Remember that a confined space is effectively defined by a risk assessment that does not just involve a description of the task and other environmental factors. An assertion that there is no materials or situation present that could produce liquid ingress or noxious gas sufficiency or oxygen deficiency simply is but one part of the assessment as to whether the space is confined for the purposes of the regulations.

One must also remember that a possiblity exists to a measurable degree that the operative could fall from the ladder, unless of course you are about to tell us that it is a fixed hooped ladder with landing platforms and an ascending safety line. More than one person may then enter this space and how does that affect your assessment of oxygen depletion/CO2 buildup? I would also look at the heat and humidity potential before jumping to an answer.

I am against the unbridled use of the definition of a space as confined but still need full information to make a decision. Clearly though there seems to be no productive work other than inspection possible and light hand tool use.

Bob

Posted By bill strachan1
Spoilsport!!