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Posted By D Mitchell
I know it is a Friday afternoon, but this is a serious post..
I am the HS&E manager for a manufacturing company and we have a problem with employees smoking in the toilets.
Non-smokers are complaining on a regular basis and the cleaners are considering refusing to enter the area.
Outside of the factory we provide smoking shelters in numerous locations.
We have a non smoking policy and after various briefs etc to workforce and union (without any improvement)we are considering alternative action.
Suggestions from senior management include reducing cubicle door heights, banning cigarretes from site and closing the toilets (all may be deemed confrontational)
Any sensible suggestions would be appreciated. Note: This is not an anti-smoking post.
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Posted By Martin H
Just to let you know that you arent alone, I could have written your post word for word!
Looking forward to hearing suggestions as well ...
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Posted By Carl West
Hi,
Have you got a smoking policy?
disciplinary procedure?
Carl
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Posted By Carl West
sorry, just seen that you do have a policy.
go down the disciplinary route?
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Posted By Merv Newman
Fit smoke detectors with really loud alarms over the toilets.
Expect to have to repair/replace a few from time to time.
Merv
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Posted By Carl West
Merv,
wouldnt that be a bit unfair on the person in the next cubicle with a bad stomach? :-)
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Posted By MickN
Put in a smoke detector. My idea here is that they will be annoyed by the alarm going off whilst they are trying to have a smoke.
I'm not sure they produce ones that are that sensitive but I know smokers wouldn't bother to go there if there was a chance of setting the thing off.
Mick
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Posted By Sen Sar
Agree with the other postings...smoke alarms ( if you havent alreday got them).
With the alarms a very strong message as to why that was necessary and what the consequences will be if the smoking continues.
(re-look at smoking policy if necessary).
I would avoid banning ciggies on site (if possible) as i'm sure the perpitrators are in the minority and this would seem a little unfair to those who stick to the rules.
Do you have set ciggie breaks?
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Posted By Merv Newman
1. the person with a bad stomach reallyreally doesn't care if the fire alarm goes off. when you gotta go you gotta go.
2. Banning smoking per se just don't work. I've been to comah sites where there were heaps of rotting dogends outside of the mess room windows.
So, facilitate. Smokers will smoke. Give them a safe place to indulge.
This said, if someone wants 5 minutes outside of normal break times to go and smoke then they should make up that time at the end of the day.
Merv
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Posted By Sen Sar
Merv
Unless I've read it wrong the posting says they hane numberous smoking shelters outside but still a few (thats a guess) keep smoking in the toilets.
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Posted By Steve Cartwright
The last company I worked for had a no smoking policy. If caught smoking within the boundary of the site resulted in instant dismissal. If caught leaving site without permission instant dismissal.
However this did not stop them. We had bushes at the back of the factory. It turned out they had made a den amongst the bushes. Quite impressive, it carpet inside and some homemade seating arrangements. We only found it by chance. It had been used that much they had worn a path in the grass. Never found those responsible.
Agree with others about smoke alarms.
Steve
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Posted By D Mitchell
Thanks for the replies.
We have smoke alarms, they are not sensitive enough, and they only indicate smoke, and do not pinpoint the individual involved.
The biggest difficulty in disciplinary action is trying to prove who was smoking, as when employees are in a cubicle, it is difficult to prove.
We have invested in a smokalyser (same principle as breathalyser, although reluctant to go down this route.
FYI , I know of a local previous company have received a claim from an asthmatic.
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Posted By Lulu
I once found evidence of staff climbing into the roof space to smoke!
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Posted By A Campbell
D,
Do you have smoke or heat detectors in the loos?
If you could get something that could be temporarly adjusted sensative wise... likelyhood of the detector going off and loud would be enough to make him/her think twice!
The other angle is a sensative issue as many places have a rule of thumb for 'recognised smoke breaks' and treat all the same regarding breaks. For the heavier smokers it is more than likely entrenched people will go to great lengths to get their fix (well it is a recognised addiction?)
I wonder if there has been any behavioural studies with regards to smoking cessation on planes and company vehicles with regards to the accronym.. 'air and road rage' syndrome... are they associated? Is this the result of legislation?
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Posted By Jane Lowe
This might stop them/or make the company do something about it (taken from the Smoking ban England website)
What happens if I get caught Smoking and breaking the ban?
If you get caught smoking, you can get a fine of £50. If you are taken to court, the fine could be increased to £200.
What happens if I`m a business owner and let people Smoke on my premises?
If you fail to display "No Smoking" signs, you could get a fine of £200 or £1000 if you are prosecuted.
If you fail to prevent people smoking on your premises, you could get a fine of up to £2500.
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Posted By jervis
Have you no smoking signs up as its illegal to smoke in a public space. Use your policy do spot checks on them.
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Posted By PL
We're top tier COMAH and have found evidence of smoking on site.
Something we have to take very seriously indeed.
We've just caught our first smoker red handed and he was instantly dismissed. We're hoping that will act as an indicator as to how serious we are.
A guy loses a job he's had for 15 years because he couldn't wait for his break for a fag? I wonder how he explained that to his missus?
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Posted By Robert_N
I feel that companies use the route of dismissal far to easy and being in a health and safety roll the first thing we should fully exhaust is training and education.
I would fit Smoke alarms as a clear sign that the issue is being managed I would also fix signage to the rear of the door.
Information and actions which are agreed by management should be briefed out at the start of each shift along with a section regarding fire safety.
I would post a message stating that the situation had become such that the company was prepared to take action leading to and including dismissal, I would hope that anyone knowing the current situation would take it on the chin. I have just rechecked my fire risk assessment to ensure I have covered hiding smokers as they find the scariest locations like dark hideaways where some forgotten items are kept.
Email me if you need to bat my points.
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Posted By jervis
Going back to P/L reply you say you sacked some one for there first offence after he had been there 15years.Did he have any other warnings on this or just get the sack straight of!
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Posted By Merv Newman
My old employer paid 100% for the first counselling. 50% if you fell back after that. Third time you were expected to pay all of it. 4th time you are out.
Merv
Sacking a 15 year employee for one mistake is a bit vicious.
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Posted By jervis
Totally agree!
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Posted By SNS
Maybe vicious, but it saves a fortune in redundancy payments.
Money is tight,
Times are hard,
No-one's getting Christmas cards.
Similar problem, just going through the 'education' cycle. Once education has been applied then its written warning, then out.
Education includes a general warning as to future conduct.
Harsh but fair.
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Posted By water67.
Hi, you have apolicy. It's an HR issue. What do they do if other policies are breached? why should you spend valuable resources on detectors etc. discipline them. only needs one to set an example to others.
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Posted By FAH09823
I am not a smoker.
This is an entirely predictable [foreseeable to the pedants out there] consequence of the blanket banning of smoking!!
Whilst there have always been relatively minor numbers of smokers breaking rules; the current draconian law & the even more draconian, totalitarian & unthinking application of it by many has led to a problem that this post is just beginning to recognise - that smokers really don't like to have to trek all the way to wherever they are allowed to smoke even in the good weather and that they will find other places that are more convenient & comfortable.
You should all start looking really closely at those places where the illicit smoker can take an unseen drag for evidence of smoking - ash, stubs, smears on floors where stubs have been extinguished, places already identified by earlier posters, and so on. Just don't act surprised, like you've been confronted by some wierd phenomonen when you find the evidence; it's been happening there for a long time!!!
I'm Back!
Frank Hallett
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Posted By CFT
Great to hear from you again on the forums Frank!
Welcome back indeed.
CFT
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Posted By TBC
Welcome back Frank - where have you been?
At one company I worked for we fitted stand alone smoke detectors and put signs on the backs of the doors reminding of the rules and saying about the smoke detectors. It worked! OK the detectors may not have gone off, but the employees wouldn't take the chance of discovery.
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Posted By 21C124
I have always found the best way to "police" smoking issues is for the smokers to be responsible for the clear up of butts etc.
I am not sure as to the legal implications of diciplinary action if they persistin abusing the toilets.
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Posted By Eric Taylor
I find a bicket of water over the top of the offending cubicle door works. Followed up by a quick, "sorry mate thought you were on fire, I mean, you couldn't possibly have been smoking could you" Makes sed offender easy to spot too, he's the drookit one. They are unlikely to go to the union as they'd have to admit to smoking in the first place.
As fo sacking someone for a first offence..........We have assorted nasties in our factory, all of which are perfectly capable of killing you and those round about you. If staff have been properly consulted and warned of the hazards and given smoking breaks and facilities etc, why would I want to leave my company open to all sorts of legal ramifications over one person recalcitrance......................? Will he pay to re-build the factory when the insurance company says "sorry, that was started by a cigarette, you're not covered in that case"
If they are too stupid to learn, or blase enough to think they are fire-proof then there is only one person responsible.
The one that made the decision to light the cigarette.
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Posted By John Webster
Merv, Jervis
Instant dismissal is the well known and accepted penalty for anyone caught lighting up, or even carrying matches or a lighter on petrochemical sites. Its not harsh. The rest of the workforce wouldn't want to work alongside anyone who is prepared to risk blowing all to kingdom come. It beggars belief, but even so, dog ends have been known to be found round the back of oil storage tanks.
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Posted By jervis
Merv i wouldnt argue with that but not in all circumstances depending on where they work!
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Posted By Mitch
When I've tried smoking in toilets I have found that my hair gets wet and the fag goes soggy!!
A ban is ban and contravention is H&R
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