Posted By Tony abc jprhdnMurphy Am I alone in thinking that this "radio & TV campaign " on the asbestos issue is a highly charged and emotive outburst. I take asbestos as a serious issue, and it forms a major part of my working day but not to the point of telling people that they are more at asbestos related risk than a car accident. Would it not be better to regulate from building occupany or ownership down to possible persons affected. In my oppinion the emotive message has done nothing to instill faith in our ability to manage the asbestos issues that we face daily. I even had an electrician walk off a job because he knew there was asbestos present on site. Incidentally there are figures that state that deaths from car accidents are more than those from asbestos related deaths...but who uses statistics these days?

Posted By GeoffB4 Well Peter I've just listened to an equally unbalanced BBC article which has said the fatality rate is higher than UK road deaths, they mentioned 10 asbestos related deaths a day. It has also failed to mention these are deaths attributable to previous exposures and will go up because of the previous exposures. There was no mention that the risk nowadays is minimal - trades no longer deliberately work with and install asbestos. No mention was made of modern rigorous regulations, of asbestos surveys and of heightened levels of awarenss. So Peter, there are always two sides to a story, some biased and some not.

Posted By Chris L "the risk nowadays is minimal " Really? I can assure you that it is not, given the massive amount of asbestos materials still present in the UK's buildings and the widespread ignorance amongst younger tradespeople & others associated with the built environment. I see no lies in any of the HSE's recent statements and if they are a little dramatic, then good - it may get the message across. People are still being exposed to asbestos even as we sit here and it's altogether unnecessary.

Posted By peter gotch OK Geoff I accept that the 10 deaths a day [365 x 10 = approx 4000]result from past exposure and that the overall level of risk is going down - just as it is on the roads, but perhaps less quickly, and with substantially less resourcing aimed at reducing the risks. Further, the 2946 fatalities from RTAs last year involve a population at risk which is vastly larger than those liable to sustain occupational exposure to asbestos. We had asbestos legislation in 1969 which was not that bad but which was not adequately enforced - hence highly critical Ombudsman report on HMFI's performance at Hebden Bridge 32 YEARS ago. Not convinced that the current regime is sufficiently enforced, so as not to require an education campaign. Regards, Peter

Posted By John Richards "A leading trade union criticised the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) today, claiming that workers were losing confidence in its role of protecting them against illness and injury. The building workers' union Ucatt made the complaint as the HSE launched a new awareness campaign warning of the continued danger of asbestos in the workplace. Around 4,000 people a year are dying from the effects of asbestos and that figure is likely to increase, with one in four victims former tradesmen. The HSE fears plumbers, electricians and joiners underestimate the risk" http://www.24dash.com/ne...asbestos-risk-to-workers "The HSE estimate that 1.8m workers are likely to disturb asbestos during routine work activity and 85,000 workers are routinely exposed to high levels of asbestos. More than 8,000 people are predicted to die if there is a continued failure to comply with asbestos regulations" http://www.hazardscampai...k/docs/amd08briefing.pdf And it gets worse: there is no guarantee that all the deaths [due to mesothelioma] are recorded as such. Still, they're usually old when they die, so it saves on the pension !

Posted By Robert K Lewis My only concern with this campaign is not the messages given but the important ones that seem not to be getting out. These are about the formal training needs and the duties to manage. Without these two pillars the problem will continue until the last building erected before 2000 has been demolished. Death and disease may diminish in the meantime but not before. We should also not forget the large well of items manufactured in the Far East where asbestos use is increasing. It only needs procurers to take their eye off the problem and a flood of ACMs could appear once more in buildings and items of equipment/spare parts. If a product contained asbestos in the past and it is now being sourced from abroad from such as China then ensure that you have cast iron procedures for checking. The asbestos problem is of such significance that it is difficult to feel that any campaign could be regarded as over emotive. Bob

Posted By GeoffB4 ... I'm only interested in those goods that contain asbestos. Thinking about it, I would have thought government agencies would be fully aware of this possibility and may have a website we can look at. Any ideas Bob?

Posted By db Geoff, It's a class 1 carcinogen - it may well be that the stats will show a decrease - but the point is if it's not controlled now then the figures will not come down. Until quite recently I used to visit asbestos license holders when I was an inspector - and deal with the jobs that didn't use license holders and there were a hell of a lot of those jobs. As others have said, the message is not getting across and people are still getting exposed. There is no "safe" dose and while a one-off exposure may not lead to disease, it certainly increases the risk. And those at risk are likely to be getting more than one-off exposures. My view is just as personal as yours - and maybe no less valid but the epidemiological data suggests the numbers will rise. A former colleague of mine has suggested there will be a report out soon that will suggest that even these figures have beeen underestimated.

Posted By GeoffB4 Bob, we're talking about construction items eg used on modern buildins site - if you give me some more information on what you mean I'll do the research to see how much has been imported in the last 8 years. But my guess would be none. I can hardly believe that modern stair nosings being imported into the UK contain asbestos - show me some proof please.

Posted By peter gotch Geoff - your experience probably reflects a sample of the market which is skewed towards the better end. The worse end of the market are unlikely to use the services of a H&S consultant. Regards, Peter

Posted By GeoffB4 Agree to an extent Peter. I have no real knowledge of the cowboy market. But my point about exposure is valid regardless. I've heard tales of apprentices in the 60/70s playing snowballs with asbestos loft insulation. We as joiners or other trades during that period had no idea it was dangerous. I've just asked my 19 year old (a student) and got a positive answer. Are we saying older more experienced people haven't this knowledge. A challenge - I doubt you could find an adult in the UK who could say that they haven't heard about asbestos and the dangers.

Posted By bill reilly I am not diminishing the risk but it is worth noting the tone from this hse stats website .The same link makes the point that current deaths are likely to be associated with 1980s exposure. http://www.hse.gov.uk/st...stics/causdis/asbfaq.htm My occupation was identified as high risk. Does this mean that I should be worried about developing asbestos related disease? This doesn’t necessarily mean all workers in the occupation have a high risk. What the analysis of occupational groups demonstrates is which occupations on average have a higher risk associated with working in them. The true nature of any risk will crucially depend on the timing and amount of asbestos inhaled. In any case, since mesothelioma has a long latency and because death certificates (upon which statistics are based) only record the last occupation of the deceased, the occupation recorded may not be the one that resulted in the asbestos exposure. Consequently, part of the risk for a given occupation may be because workers exposed in other jobs have moved into this line of work towards the end of their careers.

Posted By Nigel Bryson Dear All Those dying from asbestos related disease this year may have had the exposure that killed them up to 40 years ago. Asbestos deaths will continue for many years if a cure is not found. We will confirm whether or not current controls have been effective in around 40 year’s time, on current knowledge. Occupation recorded at death may not be the one where asbestos exposure took place. Recorded lung cancers related to asbestos exposure are likely to be serious underestimates. The HSE estimate one lung cancer for each mesothelioma death. From research done on this issue studies indicate a relationship that varies between 1:1 and 5:1. Of course it would be outrageous to consider the research that indicates 5 lung cancers for every mesothelioma. Recently in an evaluation of six causes of occupational cancer – which included asbestos - using the statistics available in 2004, the researchers identified that there were 7,317 occupational cancer deaths in that year. The remaining statistics covering the other known causes of occupational cancer are currently being evaluated. So well over 7,000 are likely to result. The HSE estimate for total occupational cancers per year is 6,000. Again studies on occupational cancers overall give a range up to 40,000 per year. So before anyone gets too hung up about road death rates versus asbestos deaths, the recorded road deaths each year are more likely to be accurate figures as compared to underestimated asbestos related deaths. One can only assume that the under reporting of most occupational cancers will continue to be a problem. Little risk in construction of significant asbestos exposure. Really? During 2007 the HSE did a blitz on construction refurbishment sites. After visiting over 1,300 sites the HSE spokesman stated: ‘Conditions were found to be so bad during this initiative that HSE plan to carry out a similar exercise in early 2008.’ If the 2008 blitzes are considered as well, the following information can be cited: 2,403 sites were inspected during the two ‘blitzes’ involving 3,005 contractors doing refurbishment work. A total of 821 Enforcement notices were issued during the initiatives: 34% of the sites inspected. This enforcement activity concerned falls from height although, as indicated, other issues were picked up. Refurbishment of old buildings is one of the target sectors of the HSE’s current asbestos campaign, targeting plumbers, joiners, electricians and others tradesmen. It is a rather large stretch of the imagination to think that the ‘modern rigorous regulations’ are likely to be applied to sites that cannot cope with the most obvious hazards, never mind invisible ones. And I seem to recall that the HSE have done a number of campaigns on falls from height in construction over recent years. Oh yes, and the month before the 2008 initiative, the HSE advertised to the world at large that they were coming!! Indeed such is our inability to get the asbestos protection right that the last time we had to improve our regulatory controls was only two years ago. This hardly inspires confidence that there is ‘little’ risk for building infrastructure workers today. It is true that the scale of the problem is likely to reduce because asbestos products are not manufactured or used any more. With the constant failure over the years to effectively manage asbestos risks, coupled with the continual underestimates of the associated deaths, and the need to still improve regulatory controls - the latest being in 2006 - the HSE campaign seems to be a model of English understatement. Cheers. Nigel

Posted By Chris L "the risk nowadays is minimal - trades no longer deliberately work with and install asbestos" "Yes there is some asbestos still out there but it's getting harder and harder to find it or any real risk of exposure." http://www.independent.c...-to-asbestos-969767.html May 2007 & Selfridges are still discovering asbestos & I assure you they are not alone. I'm also willing to bet that the tradesmen who were exposed had also heard of asbestos but quite obviously couldn't recognise it.

Posted By R Joe I for one hope that the 'single fibre theory' is not generally true........ http://www.iosh.co.uk/in...iew&forum=1&thread=35912 Common sense says that periodic exposure is likely to present a greater risk and as far as I can see although non-one now 'works with asbestos', the ability of many tradesmen to recognise asbestos and employers to take adequate action is still far too low. In addition, I wonder if we'll see further peaks in 20, 30, 40, 50 years time as a result of the property refurbishment / DIY obsession of many private individuals and TV programmes over the last decade?? The really surprising, and extremely disappointing thing about the HSE campaign is that it has taken so long. We've been worrying about the problems from DSE since 1992. If a fraction of the effort put into this had gone towards asbestos, we'd be in a better position now. An impartial observer night also think that the amount of effort expended over the last few years to eradicate the risk from stepladders might also have been better deployed. Sensible health and safety anyone? RJ

Posted By bill reilly db Are you sure you do not mean 380 notices for asbestos? I do not know the exact number but estimate there are about 700-800 HSE field inspectors.Your figures suggest that every inspector would have issued 80 notices on asbestos which seems unlikely.Even 380 notices however still suggests that there is a problem

Posted By John Richards The peak may well be 2015, not 2010. Anyway, how about discussing the most dramatic failure of the health and safety industry, ever. The risks due to asbestos have been known for many decades. Little was done. Thousands have died. What use the army of well-paid "health and safety practitioners" No more use than ornament.

Posted By John Richards Inspire confidence.... There are still people on this site who argue that white asbestos is safe. As if the purity can be relied upon, given the cost of exposure. I read a document a while ago about that subject. The reasoning went: Because the white asbestos fibre is finer than the [blue, brown] other fibres it is cleared from the lungs and poses little risk. I asked about the pathology of small fibre/solid clearance from the lung [papworth] and was rather interested in the reply. It may well be cleared from the lung, but at the expense of the lymph system. 6-1, half-a-dozen of the other.

Posted By Nigel Bryson Adrian A single case of a woman dying of mesothelioma is another addition to those that have already died. In the case referred to an investigation is under way as to whether the school she attended was a possible source of asbestos or the builders yard she walked through was a source. The fact that there are a few cases where they 'have had no known exposure to asbestos' does not mean they weren't exposed. It means that exposure couldn't be identified. And, naturally, with all the other overwhelming number of cases being put down to asbestos exposure we assume these few are not!! Presumably those dying under 40 from mesothelioma means something. Yes it may be that their exposure was after they started work but the younger people die from mesothelioma, the less work becomes the potential source of the exposure leading to their death. The points I'm trying elaborate are: a The past predictive approach to connecting the cause and effects of asbestos exposure with resulting deaths has been inaccurate - so far. The next 20 years will see if Prof Peto was right. b Low dose exposure over long periods of time from infancy may, might, possibly give rise to exposures that could lead to the mesothelioma developing. These may not be predicted by the HSE model. Future predictions may underestimate the real numbers. c Low concentrations of asbestos breathed in over a long time in some schools and may, might, possibly explain why there has been a significant increase in mesothelioma deaths of teachers in more recent years. If a threshold exposure for mesothelioma exists the HSE state that it 'must be at a very low level' and currently cannot be quantified. As a result they assume there is no threshold. Cheers. Nigel

Posted By Chris L "Are you telling me asbestos is not controlled in schools and teachers and pupils are still being exposed everyday?" Yes, and not just schools either. That's the whole point of the campaign.