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#1 Posted : 03 December 2008 10:18:00(UTC)
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Posted By Peter F We have just received the 5 star and the Sword of Honour from the British Safety council for our safety systems. I was looking at taking the company down the 18001 route but I have been told that 18001 only equates to 3 stars with the BSC. Whats your thoughts.
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#2 Posted : 03 December 2008 10:29:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kirsty Davies2 Peter, In Safety world, the recognition of 18001 is much greater than 'BSC's sword of honour". So I would rather take the 18001 route. (but the choice is yours) Kirsty
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#3 Posted : 03 December 2008 10:47:00(UTC)
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Posted By John Fraser Peter On a different tangent, why don't you use HSG 65 - there is plenty of guidance on the HSE Website and it is recognised by the HSE / Environmental Health whenever they visit. HSE Website is a very good starting point for using reliable information for many industries when a safety management system is to be created. I have had no dealings with British Safety Council 5 Star Certification so can't comment. John
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#4 Posted : 03 December 2008 11:45:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jay Joshi It is essential to recognise the difference between various safety "Star" audit systems, BS OHSAS 18001 and the BSC Sword of Honour (and ROSPA Awards). In BS OHSAS 18001, you either meet a "requirement" or you do not based on the clauses and guidance (OHSAS 18002). There is no scoring its status ( maturity, procedures, processes, KPI's inputs, outputs) and effectiveness( (to what extent is what is required tobe done actually being done) The star rating systems (BSC. ROSPA and NOSA-of South Africa)provide scoring. The various awards, from both BSC and ROSPA ( and the very badly publicised suite of National Business Awards ( the so called business Oscars) requires additional proof on specific aspects of health, afety & well-being that is judged to a set of pre-determined criteria. Therefore, the kudos/perceived status of these awards is much higher to those who participate, because the high level awards are given to the so called best. Companies that participate in the top awards such as the BSC Sword of Honour tend to go beyond the minimum requirements of standards such as BS OHSAS 18001 etc. Most companies that enter the BSC Sword of Honour do so for the prestige aspect of the award. The catch is that one cannot enter for the sword of honour without being awarded BSC 5 stars in its audit. From personal experience, I am aware that the BSC 5 Star Audit system has undergone a major reviews since early 2000 and is now a part of BSC's quality systems certification (ISO 9001:2000) Kirsty, this is not having a go at you, but please try not to comment without knowing the details and differences.
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#5 Posted : 03 December 2008 12:11:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kirsty Davies2 Jay, I am very well aware of the both and hence, reason for my post. I am not ‘undermining’ BSC awards from any angel. BSC is a good charitable & independent organisation with a very positive role in safety field. However, I was just emphasising the importance of OHSAS 18001 and it’s status worldwide. With due respect to all but there are some organisations (and I talking about well recognised ones) which do provide this audit service to the clients. And believe you me; there's is a lot of monopoly when accrediting some organisations. And yes, there have been some cases where organisations with no sense of OHSAS18001, ISO 14001, and HSG65 etc were represented with 'stars'. And just for clarity purpose, there is a difference between a quality standard and a safety standard. Kirsty
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#6 Posted : 03 December 2008 13:00:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jim Walker We hold 9001,14001 & 18001 certs because we would not get any business otherwise. We expect our subbies to do the same to even be considered for tenders. Anyone citing 5 star and or sword would be told "very nice, but back to the real world do you have........" Incidentally we have got the 5 star for past 10-15 years, its just a tick box exercise. I thought you got the sword for paying for a bigger table at the awards ceremony ;-))
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#7 Posted : 03 December 2008 13:24:00(UTC)
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Posted By Peter F Jim, I'd like to know who audited for your 5 star if it is only a tick box exercise, I personally put in a lot of work, surely putting down a system just because your preference is 18001 is very narrow minded. I hold the 18001 auditor/lead auditor certificate so know how much work is required. If you find that 5 star is only tick box then you must be carrying it out with an on site auditor. During the three days we had to produce as much if not more evidence as is required for the 18001 and they cost about the same. As for The Sword of Honour as your company do not hold it, maybe it was out of reach so you went the easy for 18001.
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#8 Posted : 03 December 2008 13:29:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jim Walker We are a commercial company, we live or die by our profits. 18001 ensures we get contracts. 5 star & or sword just cost money. It might be easy way out (I'd debate that) its just how the world works. We need value for money.
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#9 Posted : 03 December 2008 13:36:00(UTC)
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Posted By Peter F The Sword is cost effective if you don't send anyone to collect it, it's the collecting that costs the money. The audits however cost the same, but if it works for your company and keeps you in work then that's great. I think the work we put in for the 5 star will stand us in good shape for 18001. the reason I asked was i was told that 3 stars were equivalent to 18001 which I found hard to believe.
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#10 Posted : 03 December 2008 13:37:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jay Joshi Yes, BS OHSAS 18001 has a wider acceptance beyond UK, but it is not an ISO i.e. International Standard, unlike ISO 9001 & ISO 14001, although it lends itself to integration and is alignment. I have not stated which one to go for, just highlighted the differences, which surely there are. Organisations that apply for the "Sword of Honour" do so for the perceived (or otherwise) status, in their judgement rightly so, but individuals have their own views. Most of these organisations already have OHSAS 18001 certification! For example, many high risk chemical manufacturing organisations, being members of the American Chemistry Council are mandatory now required to have third party certification to the Responsible Care Management System (RCMS). The UK equivalent is thee Chemical Industries Association --who have not yet made it mandatory to have third party RCMS certification for compliance to its "Responsible Care programme"). A competent safety professional in the field of health and safety management systems will be able to identify that the RCMS goes way beyond OHSAS 18001 -and OHSAS 18001 is not a requirement. It is one thing to have OHSAS 18001 due to supply chain requirements or otherwise, quite another when it comes to comparison with other management systems that include an element of scoring and better benchmarking criteria! Refer to:- http://www.bsi-global.co...ds-and-Schemes/RC-14001/ I have nothing against BS OHSAS 18001, but it is not an international standard in context of ISO. Otherwise there would be pressure on ISO to establish a technical committee --attempts to do so have failed in 1996 and 2000. Those who are not aware, OHSAS 18001 was "created" by certification bodies when consensus for a certification standard was not reached in the BSI HS/1 technical committee prior to publication of BS 8800:1996. It is only very recent that OHSAS 18001 has been accredited by UKAS and a few other accreditation bodies. It was only last year that BSI HS/1 technical committee endorsed OHSAS 18001 as a British Standard and BS 8800:2004 will be revised and published as BS 18004 by the end of this year or early next year.
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#11 Posted : 03 December 2008 13:43:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kirsty Davies2 Peter, It is very unusual claim to be a lead auditor for 18001 and labelling it 'easier route'. Can you please clarify whether you hold the certificate only or are you involved in carrying out the audits itself? As i am a contracted auditor of an 'approved & well known organisation' and I don't find it 'easy' for companies to gain accreditation without commitment and hardwork towards H&S.
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#12 Posted : 03 December 2008 13:45:00(UTC)
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Posted By Peter F Thanks Jay, I knew that, although it is believed that it will become ISO in the next year or so. I was just trying to gauge what I consider like minded people i.e. health and safety bods thought of the two.
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#13 Posted : 03 December 2008 14:20:00(UTC)
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Posted By Marked man I've been given 5 stars three years in a row. Through I will add, very little effort by me. Zero effort by the Senior Managers and absolutely zero effort by the workforce. As for the sword. There is no audit to confirm it, you apply, you submit by post, you get selected, you win. Whats to stop a company from copying another company's submission and also getting a sword?
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#14 Posted : 03 December 2008 14:22:00(UTC)
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Posted By Peter F That would be cheating, i now take it that you do not know what you are talking about. But Thanks for the effort of writing.
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#15 Posted : 03 December 2008 15:07:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jay Joshi Kirsty, There is a difference between accreditation and certification. You seem to be confused between the two. Only UKAS, the UK statutory accreditation body (and its counterparts in other countries) generally provide "accreditation services". It is the UKAS accredited certification bodies that provide certification via audits. UKAS's mandate for its accreditation services is governed by its Memorandum of Understanding with DIUS-previously with DTI. Certification bodies generally cannot provide "accreditation" services, http://www.ukas.com/information_centre/faq.asp http://www.ukas.com/Libr...AS/MOU%202007%20DIUS.pdf
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#16 Posted : 03 December 2008 15:09:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kirsty Davies2 “ OHSAS 18001 is the internationally recognized assessment specification for occupational health and safety management systems. It was developed by a selection of leading trade bodies, international standards and certification bodies to address a gap where no third-party certifiable international standard exists.” The above quote is taken from the following BSI website; http://www.bsi-global.co...d-Schemes/BSOHSAS-18001/ Again, I would like to clear here that we are discussing ‘Star’ audits compared to OHSAS 18001. (We are not arguing whether 18001 is an international standard or not). Also it’s pointless to compare 18001(H&S) to 14001 (environmental) & 9001 (quality) standards. I would love to know a ‘an international standard ’ which is better than 18001 or HSG65 . I agree with Jim in stating that ‘18001 ensures we get contract'.
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#17 Posted : 03 December 2008 15:26:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jay Joshi The use of OHSAS in UK, a few other commonwealth countries, plus a few in the gulf region does not warrant it to be an international standard. BSI may claim whatever it wants, but until it becomes a full fledged ISO standard, it is not technically an international standard. We seem to forget that USA, most of Americas (including Canada),and Australia have their own version and have not embraced BS OHSAS 18001! The proof is in the pudding that ISO did get the required majority for establishing a technical committee for an ISO standard for Occupational Health and Safety Management Systems in 1996 & 2000. It is possible that some time in the future, that may occur, but only if the Americas and others are convinced.
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#18 Posted : 03 December 2008 15:31:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kirsty Davies2 Jay - Read the fourth paragraph of my previous post.
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#19 Posted : 03 December 2008 17:05:00(UTC)
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Posted By Marked man Peter F. 1. Little effort by me as I run a tight ship and my systems work 25/8. 2. Yes it would be cheating. Now. Please explain your point? Including reason for the negative comment directed at me?
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#20 Posted : 03 December 2008 17:33:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ian G Hutchings Hi Peter This ones gone off on one a bit! Back to your question. I would only advise the 18001 path it it can be proven to add value to your organisation, over and above the 5 star requirements as some of these may be repeated as part of 18001, but yes, as indicated in the many threads they are different animals. Personally I think anything that reduces the risk of injury is a good thing, whether it is BSC, RoSPA, DNV or whatever. The true question therefore is does it reduce operational risk to staff? Does it add commercial value (win more contractors or differentiate us from competition)? Better defence if someone is hurt or gets killed? I work with clients who have it and those that don't. It all appears to depend on how it is done and who certifies the system. I believe that some certification companies can be an easier option than others, strangely they also seem to cost less. I believe that there are more efficient ways time can be spent to combat on the job safety, but also recognise we have to have structure for it all to come together. No easier answer but I am happy to give a more considered opinion via email if you can let me know more about the business. All the best Ian
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#21 Posted : 03 December 2008 20:42:00(UTC)
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Posted By Peter F Marked man, so you did put effort in or you didn't and inhereted the systems in place by someone before you which the senior management has bought into and so has the workforce, because a lot of the workforce and management are questioned as part of the audit. My point is that if you claim to have gained the 5 star cert. 3 years on the run without putting effort in then you do not know what you are talking about because it is a three day audit, with all areas needing to be evidenced.
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#22 Posted : 04 December 2008 06:39:00(UTC)
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Posted By Saz G Once again, a number of members have managed to do nothing more than inflate their already-overblown-ego's and provide 'zero' helpful information for the original poster! Some of you are obviously far more obsessed with blowing your own trumpets about your credentials/post nom's/university educations/salaries and present positions than actually providing any helpful (accurate) advice. All this constant need to out-do the other members of the forum does is confuse those who are genuinely trying to obtain advice and guidance from their peers. Why can't any of you just offer a personal opinion and some helpful information to the thread starters instead of quoting regs/international standards and other useless drivel and undermining those who are all supposedly working to the common goal of IOSH?? It would have been far better to praise anyone who has ANY form of robust and continually improving Health and Safety Management System in place, rather than try to get one up on your fellow members. I despair sometimes with the self-obsession of some members on here and wonder how you all have so much time on your hands to perpetuate these pointless arguments? Peter F, you are to be commended and I wish you every success with whichever path you choose, the important thing is, that you are striving to improve your systems and keep people safe at work.
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#23 Posted : 04 December 2008 06:54:00(UTC)
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Posted By Peter F Thanks for your comments Saz and all who replied, I have however had information from the BSC that as from next year there will be added criteria to their audit that will possibly extend the audit to 4 days and if you meet 3 or above stars you will receive 18001 certification. So on that basis I will continue with the 5 star system, the financial burden of the Sword of Honour and may just apply for the international award. Marked Man here's something else you can get without any effort, well done on your past achievements.
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#24 Posted : 04 December 2008 11:13:00(UTC)
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Posted By IOSH Moderator And on that note, I think Peter F has his answer. Thread locked under AUG 1. Jon
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