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#1 Posted : 07 January 2009 13:45:00(UTC)
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Posted By northtechsafety I am concerned at the health and safety management at my golf course, regarding the ground staff working on the course whilst members are playing. THe Club has a well qualified H&S advisor (CMIOSH) but as far as I can see there are no control measures in place other than a notice by the 1st tee asking golfers to be aware of men working on the course. What happens on other courses?
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#2 Posted : 07 January 2009 13:55:00(UTC)
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Posted By Anthony Edwards You have mail regards Tony
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#3 Posted : 07 January 2009 14:06:00(UTC)
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Posted By stephen d clarke Hi, The HSE in collaboration with others have produced a useful document freely available at http://www.aberdeenshire...handSafetyManagement.pdf regards Steve
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#4 Posted : 07 January 2009 14:07:00(UTC)
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Posted By Raymond Rapp The RA have a useful checklist for golf clubs. Essentially there are two issues associated with the course: first course management by the greenkeeping staff; second members and visitors playing on the course. BIGGA also provide h&s training courses for green keeping staffing, not sure what is available on their website. The HSE did provide guidance but the book is now out of print and was only really useful for maintenance of the course. I have looked into various aspects of golf course h&s management and have some useful documents, but they still do not replace a hands-on approach for each individual course. Feel free to ask for anything specific. Ray
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#5 Posted : 13 January 2009 08:32:00(UTC)
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Posted By northtechsafety Thanks for all the replies.However, in all the literature referred to the general theme is that as long as you make the ground staff aware (assuming you know they are there)that you are playing through then everything is OK and the need for Hi viz, hard hats and other control measures is superfluous. I wonder if the HSE inspector would accept that answer on a building site where I have told everyone to "take care"!
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#6 Posted : 13 January 2009 08:41:00(UTC)
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Posted By Raymond Rapp I would be interested to learn how you came about that information. For example, the MHSWR s3 requires a risk assessment and significant risks should be recorded. The controls from the RA should then be implemented including any PPE. A golf course in that respect is no different to an other working environment, including a construction site.
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#7 Posted : 13 January 2009 10:04:00(UTC)
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Posted By graeme12345 whats the difference in another golfer and an employee, both can take civil action if they are hit
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#8 Posted : 13 January 2009 10:14:00(UTC)
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer Can see it now, men working on a golf course and golfers walking round in hard hats Hi Viz vests abd putting barriers around them to prevent being hit by a ball. The risks of working on a golf course are well known, that's why golfers shout FORE whenever they hit a ball that could hit someone. Jsut a quick question, when was the last fatal case of someone being killed by a golf ball?
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#9 Posted : 13 January 2009 10:46:00(UTC)
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Posted By Raymond Rapp Although it may seem fatuous to some, there are some significant risks in golf course management with plant and machinery. Just shouting 'fore' is not enough in my opinion. For example, cages can obtained for tractors which prevent the operative from getting struck by a golf ball. Okay, I can't recall anyone getting killed by a ball but plenty of serious injuries such as the loss of an eye.
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#10 Posted : 13 January 2009 11:01:00(UTC)
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer The point I was trying to get over is simply the glof course is an open area, as I understand the golf ball won't go far in a close area. Not a golfer as you may see, simple think golf is a good walk spoilt. But from a safety point of view the risk is quite small and when propoer awareness by both green workers and golfers the risk is minimised. Safety is not a treason to stop those who like golf from playing it, anyway without golfers there would be no glof corces so no jobs therefore no risk of injury from flying golf balls. Close them all I say just in the interest of Elf & Safety you understand.
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#11 Posted : 14 January 2009 09:57:00(UTC)
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Posted By northtechsafety Clearly, a subject that has created a lot of reaction. However, I am not really concerned with players hitting other players, they can resolve that themselves, without the HSE getting involved. It is players hitting green keeping staff with balls (or clubs)that is my main concern and the Club being liable to prosecution. I don't see a problem with green staff wearing High viz or safety helmets. But the Bigga document does not mention them.
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#12 Posted : 14 January 2009 10:23:00(UTC)
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Posted By Raymond Rapp Northtechsafety Provided some sensible precautions are adopted then there should not be a problem and greenkeepers would not necessarily have to wear hard hats, hi-vis etc. Each course will have its own unique safety issues for both golfers and greenkeeing staff. For example, cutting grass on sloping tees or fairways, working in adverse weather conditions, blind spots on the course and so on. Furthermore, there have been some damn silly comments posted on this subject by those who should know better. Golfers being struck by a ball or a club by another golfer is a civil matter, whereas not carrying out a RA or implementing a SSoW is a criminal matter under h&s law. Managing golf course health and safety properly does not impinge on the enjoyment of golfers, nor does it affect the work to the course. Quite simple really... Ray
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#13 Posted : 14 January 2009 10:27:00(UTC)
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Posted By MT Did you see section 2.1 in the document mentioned above? It covers working in the field of play. I have to say that in 5 years in enforcement, covering about a dozen golf courses, I've never yet received a RIDDOR regarding any greens staff being injured by golf balls. Generally greens staff themselves are keen golfers and therefore are aware of play when they are at work, and also most clubs will have a notice posted for the members' attention stating who has right of way on the course, which also helps lower the risk of accidents.
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#14 Posted : 14 January 2009 11:11:00(UTC)
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Posted By ScotsAM The case can be made that the difference between a golfer and a groundsworker is that a golfer knows and understands the risks involved in playing golf and find them acceptable. A groundsman may either not know or understand the risks (poor training then) or know them but find them unacceptable EXCEPT they feel forced to work there due to socio-economic factors. Additionaly, golfers move through the course on the main route of play thus less likely to be struck by other balls whilst a groundsworker may be working at a slower pace or in different directions from the main route of play. Does that make sense?
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#15 Posted : 14 January 2009 11:26:00(UTC)
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Posted By MT ScotsAM, yes I understand what you are saying and I understand why you're concerned. I just thought it might be helpful for me to tell you that maybe there is less risk than you might think, given that I haven't come across any accidents yet. *touch wood* Ha ha! Generally, the staff I meet are golfers themselves and very knowledgeable about safety, and are members of the GTC or BIGGA and have also covered H&S during their apprenticeships. The head greenkeepers usually also organise tasks so that the bulk of work on the course is done as early in the day as possible. However, it sounds like you have particular concerns about a course and their staff, therefore you may want to raise it directly with the club, or speak to the enforcing LA about your concerns. The document which was quoted above, http://www.aberdeenshire...andSafetyManagement.pdf, is the HSE guidance on golf courses at the moment. The previous guide was withdrawn, and has been superceded by this new document, written by LA officers, the HSE and the GTC.
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#16 Posted : 14 January 2009 16:07:00(UTC)
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Posted By Renny Thomson A friend is the Head Groundkeeper at a prestigious golf course in Edinburgh, so I'll pass on how I know he deals with some of the hazards mentioned above. As MT has posted, many of the tasks where there could be a higher risk of being hit that the grounds staff carry out are normally scheduled for periods before the course opens for play or after it closes. This includes cutting of greens or tees, moving of holes etc. Cutting of fairways is, I believe, carried out using machines with enclosed cabs. There are other significant risks associated with the use of machinery, chemicals, zoonoses, lone working, etc, but I don't think these are what the OP is commenting on. It may be that the course the OP plays is not as well managed and that he feels staff are not protected and are at risk of being struck by balls. The guidance noted above will be of use.
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#17 Posted : 16 January 2009 11:04:00(UTC)
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Posted By northtechsafety I agree with Raymond Rap that there are some strange comments from people who should know better, I wonder whether some work in the H&S industry! How can a risk assessment on someone working out on a golf course, maybe raking bunkers (therefore possibly walking between holes) or clearing out a ditches etc. not require control measures, other what6 appears to be the general recommendation of keeping an eye out for some one hitting a golf ball in their direction or having a notice on the 1st tee telling golfers to be aware of staff working on the course.
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#18 Posted : 16 January 2009 15:39:00(UTC)
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer If my comments seem to be a little flipant, they were imtended to be so. The real risks to green keepers and iother ground staff at a golf course also aply to ground staff at footbal and rugby sstadiums. Safe use of machines, chemicals such as pesticides etc. But the danger of being hit by flying golf balls is quite low and simple prcautions reduce this type of event to a minimum of something like zero. I intended to stir things a bit to try and get someone to put the 'problem' into perspective. I think there are many worse problems to resolve before worrying about the rare risk of injury from a flying golf ball.
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#19 Posted : 16 January 2009 15:42:00(UTC)
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Posted By BB Interesting thread and close to my heart. At the club I play, I tend not to disclose what I do for a living following a visit a couple of years back from the local authority. I would suggest that before a H&S advisor attempts to give advice at a club or an EHO goes in (clipboard locked and loaded), he/she does their research properly and learns about the game and its etiquette. In addition, he/she also needs to understand the types of person allowed to play the course and how these are admitted. There is a strict code of practice for the game, much of it documented in the R&A rules of golf, but more importantly in course local rules. If you watch play at a 'proper' club, in addition to the usual banter and jollity, you will generally observe a quiet efficiency about the way the game is conducted, even from higher handicappers. I think a lot of other pursuits could learn many valuable lessons from this most ancient of pastimes! Golf is alien to the uninitiated and unique in its levels of etiquette and behaviour, from grass roots (excuse the pun), to the very top of the professional ranks. Its very foundations being based on mutual respect, it is almost entirely self-regulating, with little need for umpires and referees. This doesn't just cover the game itself but the whole endeavour whilst on the course. In my opinion, this it what puts the game, however silly it may appear to an outsider, head and shoulders above any other sporting pastime. From a training point of view, as well as greens staff, virtually all private clubs and private members' clubs (there is a difference), vet players when they apply for membership for some demonstration of playing competence (i.e. handicap certificate and/or reference from previous club). Without this, you will be sent out with the club professional who will report back on the player's ability. In addition, green fee paying visitors usually are only allowed on the course if signed in by a club member, or if they produce some proof of competence to the course pro. In some countries, such as Germany, players need to pass a test to attain a licence, before they can play on a course proper. Obviously, public 'pay and play' courses do not have this ability and should be considered as an entirely different risk. In my experience of the game (20 years and off a single figure handicap), dangerous players are identified and challenged rapidly, as are those who display poor general behaviour. This isn't just because they may hurt someone, but because they can destroy other players' enjoyment of this precious leisure time! This is already significantly different to the norm of daily life. With regard to the comparison between the safety of the green keepers and the players, the former are at work and the latter there for pleasure and so an element of volenti applies methinks. The threat generally always exists from the players to the green staff. However, successful play relies on good observation and distance judgment. It is unusual for greens staff to go unseen. Being hit by a golf ball in flight is extremely dangerous, but the process that goes into it being struck has already been subject to a lot consideration......and then mis-hit! The course I play is 120 years old. We had a visit from an EHO who jumped up and down, demanding lifebuoys and signs every 50m alongside a small stream running through the course. If you fell in it, you could indeed drown, (although it would be a 1 in 120 year event).....but this would be nothing up against the ridicule you'd receive from your fellow competitors! The EHO was reminded that there was a large expanse of water just over the dunes, called the English Channel, and this didn't appear to have any signs and very few life rings. Plus it was open to the general public, round the clock with no supervision at all. Priceless. BB
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#20 Posted : 16 January 2009 16:00:00(UTC)
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Posted By Raymond Rapp BB An excellent post and one that I can empathise with. Nice to see the return of some common sense on this subject. Have a good weekend and - crack on. Ray
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