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Posted By toby liberson
NO
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Posted By Merv Newman
While I might also say "NO" even "HELL NO", this does not have a lot to do, directly, with H&S.
I feel a monitor brandishing a flaming AUG1 coming on.
Merv
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
If the HSE never got an enforcement notice or prosecution wrong and could be guaranteed to to be defintively 100% right on all decisions in the future then one might see something like this being accepted - until then !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bob
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Posted By holmezy
AHS,
definately a NO. Can't even see a tenuous link between it and H+S (at work).
Bob,
based on your logic ( no mistakes etc) then surely the neither the old CSA (via the court) nor the CMEC (directly!!) should be having the power either. The CSA wasn't exactly sqeaky clean and the rebranding exercise hasn't filled people with confidence so far!!
Holmezy
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
I am not affected by the CSA and its successors and therefore make no comment.
Bob
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Posted By Francis E S Hone
the CSA or whatever you want to call them get it wrong every time chasing people who do pay for ever increasing payments. They say they can do nothing if someone does not pay they choose an easier target. If stress & depresion are a cause for H&S concerns then the CSA have a lot to answer for.
Frank
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Posted By holmezy
Bob,
no direct contact with them either, just know lots of chaps who have had a rough time with them!
Wasn't having a dig at you in any way...
Holmezy
(a thoroughly nice bloke, don't you know)
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Posted By AHS
The topic is not about the CSA but the new idealogy behind prosecutory jurisprudence.
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Posted By Dave Merchant
Couldn't possibly happen with HASAWA offences as there's no absolute framework to apply.
You can have a fixed penalty notice for carrying drugs as you either are or are not carrying them. There's no third option.
For HASAWA, almost all prosecutions center on a debate on what "reasonable" or "practicable" may mean in a particular situation - as the HSE refuses to ever issue legally-definitive detailed advice in advance, the only way to reach a decision is to argue in court.
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Granting power to effectively deny an individual proof of identity, citizenship and the ability to earn a wage? Somewhat draconian and perhaps also an infringment of basic human rights?
Akin to punishing an employer to the extent he is no longer able to function, provide employment and contribute to the public coffers.
In either case, surely not in the public interest.
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Dave
But there are some absolute duties that could be addressed by fixed penalties
Bob
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Posted By S T
Why don’t they just deduct money from wages through employers whenever in employment. Confiscating licenses and passport wouldn’t do anything.
Unsure, how associated article will correlate with H&S law & practice.
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Posted By Jane Blunt
Could I re-state the originator's statement on this thread:
"The topic is not about the CSA but the new idealogy behind prosecutory jurisprudence."
Discussion about the CSA is outside the scope of these forums. Forum users need to stay within the Acceptable Use Guidelines.
Jane
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Posted By Colin Reeves
Trying desperately to keep within AUG1 ...
Whilst the report is correct that this seems to be an administrative exercise and removing jurisdiction from the courts, the Minister on the TV this morning made it very clear that anyone affected can appeal to the courts - any action would then be suspended until the court had made a decision.
It seems to be a way of streamlining processes, not totally removing them from the court system.
Must admit I am a bit uncomfortable, but the way seems there to protest if it is felt unjust.
Colin
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Posted By Swis
Trial without jury???
How can they claim to have serve the justice.
Biased, Political Bureaucracy
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
Regarding the criminal trial of alleged robbers it appears eminently sensible under the circumstances.
Whether a similar process could be adopted for health and safety offences is a moot point but interesting notion nonetheless. Given that h&s offences are by definition strict liability offences, where no proof of intention (mens rea) is needed, it appears that a trial by judge alone would be quite laudable.
The only defence to a charge under HSWA is s40 one of practical or reasonably practical and case law dictates the degree of foreseeability will be used to rationalise the reasonably practical argument. In theory, if there was no foreseeability element in the case the accused would have a weak or perhaps no defense.
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Posted By Brett Day
Talking to a friendly magistrate he is very concerned that from updates from the Ministry of Justice, the current aim is to remove as many offences from magistrates courts and 'trial by jury situations' as possible and replace with fixed penalty offences.
Will fixed penalties have a detrimental effect on H&S instead of the current system, I'd have to ssay in my opinion a very definate yes !
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
Brett
I think fixed penalty notices are a legitimate sanction for some types of violations but not for criminal offences. They are also more inclined towards individual offences rather than corporate ones, which is atypical of h&s offences.
Mean to have mentioned in my previous post about a conflict with the HRA and specifically where there is a right for a fair trial and justice. Can see Amnesty International sharpening their pencils.
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Posted By AHS
Why didnt they just video stream to Jurors at an anonymous location?
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