Posted By Crim I have today completed a fire risk assessment on a ground floor glazing office/shop/workshop. The risk assessment has revealed lots of issues, not least regarding a damaged lath and plaster ceiling and an opening through the ceiling where a gas pipe passes from a meter through to the floor above. The first floor is a flat with a separate entrance from outside. There is no fire alarm system. Both ground and first floor premises are owned by the Landlord. My question here is regarding the Landlord's responsibility for maintenance of the building as a whole and if there are separate responsibilities toward the occupier of the first floor flat bearing in mind it is over a workshop? The whole ground floor is in a state of disrepair and will need quite some upgrading to conform to the requirements of the RR(FS) Order.

Posted By Bob Youel Landlords have many many duties towards tenants especially so re Fire and Hygiene I would take your findings to the landlord & have a chat remembering to focus on fire if that is what has been commissioned of you

Posted By Crim Tony I think you misunderstood my question or have I completely misunderstood the requirements of the Order? According to pages 9/10 of the guidance document the risk assessment will help determine the dangers from fire that the premises present for the people who use them and any person in the immediate vicinity. Am I wrong to consider the occupant of the flat immediately above the premises in case of fire spread through the defective ceiling? I welcome comments on this from others as it obviously needs clarification.

Posted By Crim Tony, no offence mate but you still have not answered my question re Landlord's duties. I believe I know my way around fire risk assessments but not Landlords duties, hence my thread.

Posted By Raymond Rapp It is my understanding that the person who is in 'control' of the premises is the responsible person as per the RRFSO.

Posted By Tony abc jprhdnMurphy Crim in that case I did misunderstand. I thought you were undertaking a Fire Risk Assessment.

Posted By Bob Youel Crim In my personal opinion you are correct to include the condition of the pipe access/routes in your Fire RA as such open routes will assist the spread of fire etc. You have to satisfy your back not just the basics of the law - if the landlord is anywhere decent your findings will only help them manage The 'controller' has the ultimate duties and responsibilities and its quite amazing just who owns what/ is responsible for managing what once you get to grips with tenancy / occupancy agreements if in doubt or you want additional support invite your local fire H&S officer to have a look

Posted By Suffolkman Take a look at: the guide for sleeping accommodation: http://www.communities.g...ons/fire/firesafetyrisk4 The web page makes it clear that FRA applies to the common areas e.g hall stairs etc.... As for the issues you spotted in relation to floor penetration and damaged ceiling both of which would contribute to the spread of smoke/ fire i would have thought that's exactly what you should look for in an FRA - crealry its not supposed to be a full structural survey but obvious faults should I believe be noted

Posted By David Bannister I am very firmly of the opinion that structural features must be considered as part of a fire risk assessment. Fire break walls are a positive feature whilst openings in floors and walls provide a means for fire to rapidly spread eg pipe openings, cable ducts, ventilation shafts, loft spaces. The potential for rapid spread should influence the decision on the means of raising the alarm and what to do when the alarm is sounded (phased or full evacuation).

Posted By shaun mckeever Sorry Tony but that is exactly what a fire risk assessment is intended to do. It is intended to identify who is at risk in the event of a fire. In this case it is the resident in the flat who may be sleeping when the fire occurs. There is required to be a minimum of 1 hour fire resisting separation between the different purpose groups i.e. residential and commercial. If the pipe passing through the floor leaves a gap around that pipe which allows toxic gas and other combustion products to pass through then clearly the required fire resisting separation is not there. Crim is correct to identify the problem. In my view it is the occupier of the commercial unit that is responsible since it is a fire in his unit, that may be due to his activities, over which the landlord has no control, that will put the resident at risk. This is even more relevant as you will now bring it to the attention of the ground floor occupant so he cannot deny knowledge. It may be that the landlord will be responsible for repairs etc but the ground floor occupant should repair and then claim.