Posted By H&SEHO
Hi folks

Some local councils do not uplift grass cuttings or leaves, stating that the natural mulching process is more cost effective. Lifting cuttings can increase the grass cutting costs by 12 times and increase job duration. However, action is being taken against a particular council for failing to maintain the footway on which a person has slipped on wet grass blown/kicked onto the pavement.

Perhaps warning signage (off the ground) highlighting recent grass cutting would assist councils trying to operate more efficiently but surely the duty of care extends to this task.

I'd appreciate your observations...

Posted By clairel
I assume by 'action' you mean a civil claim as I cannot see blown, wet, grass cuttings causing a slip being a breach of H&S legislation.

In which case, more conkers bonkers. When are the insurance companies going to be bought into line so that they stop paying out on stupid claims.

Wet grass!! Give me a break. What happened to personal responsibility for looking at what you are doing with your feet. Next councils will be expected to pick up every fallen leaf.

This sort of this makes me very very very cross :-(

Posted By Ian Blenkharn
Clairel

Be very very very careful not to jump on a snappy little bandwagon of condemnation at least until you have thought through the issues involved.

Grass cuttings and soil etc on the pavement left over from cutting of verges is a recognised hazard and accidents have occurred. IWM have information on quite a few claims, from slips and dirt etc being trodden into shops, offices and homes, to accidents on the highway as grass cutting vehicles make a slippery mess on the highway.

Silly comments about LAs expecting someone to pick up a leaf sit uncomfortably against the quite common fixed penalty notices issued to those who drop even the smallest amount of litter, including on occasions that which will most definitely be eaten quickly by the birds.

H&SEHO - I doubt that is your real name, and can't imagine for a moment why you and others, clairel included, hide behind these pen names - Consider the action of your Council in circumstances that are effectively reversed, as described above. Check also what happens on the lovely landscaped lawns around your Council Offices. I doubt they are left as is with a tongue in cheek explanation that the mulch is good.

Next, put it all down on paper, pros and cons, and send it to the Councillors. Ask them if they can imagine any circumstance in which the electorate would tolerate those dual standards. Ask them also if they would be happy to risk not being re-elected when the time comes.

It isn't a high level H&S issue, though it would be for the individual who slips on the cuttings. Its largely a matter of management policy and service standards etc, though realistically an accident might happen one day. And since it might cost votes - try a letter to the local newspaper to gauge opinion if you are uncertain - your Councillors might make the decision for you.

Or leave it to clairel, who might decide also to leave other garden clippings, cigarette ends, crisp packets other sweetie wrappers, burger wrappers, old tyres, mattresses, old sofas and the rest just where they fall.

Your Council will no doubt have a written policy on litter management and if it is bullish about it, may consider every dropped morsel as a serious enviro crime. Take a lead from their approach, but do ask the Councillors is they would be happy to manage the flack that they might receive. After all, it's their policy, not yours

Ian

Posted By IOSH Moderator
Please could we stick to the subject in question.

That's observations about grass cuttings by the way.

Thanks

Jonathan

Posted By H&SEHO
I concur unequivocally that society has went too far in relation to some public safety risks. I also agree that until such time as insurance companies defend actions, the more silly the claims will be - making us safety professionals bear the brunt of media criticism (HSE "Myth of the Month" anyone?)

This happens to be a real civil claim, live at the moment. Initially, it causes a tut and shake of the head. Subsequently, after a bit of thought, it brings the mind around to thinking what could be done to prevent future accidents - surely this is a core reason we are employed in this field.

Signage is placed to alert drivers to grass cutting when machinery are cutting hedgerows adjacent to roads - so why not signage alerting pedestrians to grass cuttings? Afterall there are warning signs for "Cleaning in Progress" despite knowing the floor surface is wet.

Yes, it appears as if someone is "at it" but the ambulance chasing solicitors are calling... surely, in light of such claims, it is practicable, in today's society, to alert pedestrians to work (and the by-product of that work), that they are at risk, whilst walking in a particular area?

This lateral thinking may help focus the discussion.

Thanks for all contributions.

Posted By Alan Haynes
As a reminder of the result of a person slipping on a flower petal

http://www.thisislondon....31.5m+after+slipping+on+'killer'+petal+outside+florist/article.do

Posted By Raymond Rapp
Must confess to not having read all the posts, however a few years ago I was approaching a bend in the road with a grass verge when I noticed a plume of dust. A motor bike rider had come off his bike on the same bend which was a direct result of fresh grass cuttings lying on the road. I assisted the rider and he was thankfully not seriously hurt, but on another day who knows...

Posted By MikeW
Well said pete.

Posted By SNS
It looks like an issue around forseeability of risk and injury.


Did the incident really happen?

How often have such incidents occurred?

When grass is cut does it become waste?
If collected would it need to be transferred by a licenced operator to a licenced disposal site?

As has been said previously on this thread signs are (in the main) ignored.

Is the LA self insuring? if not what does the insurance company say?

Apply the RA process and consider the outcome(s).

Regards,
S

Posted By Vrick
Dear all
I respect the views of each and everyone on this thread since I'm from a democratic country and at the same time would like mine to be respected.
This is a H&S issue that has got its importance and was rightly pointed out by Pete48 and he defended it well. As a HS professional, you should be in a position to defend your profession otherwise nobody is going to do it for you.
You do not cut dowm corners on HS.
Long grass is a hazard,somebody passing near the grass is at risk, although it has not happened does not mean that it will not happen, and if it happens the consequence might or might not be serious.
Afterall it is the LA responsibility to maintain the locality. Whether the insurance will pay or not any eventual claim is another issue not related to HS.
Everywhere around the world, HS Professionals are considered as the greatest pin in the as......

Thks Vrick

Posted By Eddie
Seems like we are in "clearing snow in the car park" territory

At the risk of preaching to the choir on this, wouldn't a risk assessment identify if there was a significant risk associated with grass that has been left to mulch ending up on a walkway and actually casing a slip that results in harm.

I could understand if "significant risk" was the outcome where it is likely that there will be vunerable people (residential care homes or sheltered accomodation for example), but otherwise I feel that the concept of reasonable care would apply.

I understand that vunerable people may be exposed to the hazard in parks etc, but we cannot manage risk by always taking the worst possible scenario as the most likely outcome.

Regards

E

Posted By rosstoward
Here's an idea, bloke goes along with leaf blower, putting the cuttings back onto the grassed area - problem solved, or is the cost of a civil case less than it would cost to employ some1 to do this. I dunno!!!

Posted By paulw71
And then in autumn when all those leaves fall from trees in parks. What do we do then ?

Posted By paulw71
Im obviously in a minority.
I thought that our job was sensible risk management.
I remember the outcry on this website when the programme ridiculing H&S professionals was broadcast and now the same people are preaching about the dangers of grass.

Extract from Hse website
Health and safety is not about.

Creating a totally risk free society
Generating useless paperwork mountains
Scaring people by exaggerating or publicising trivial risks
Stopping important recreational and learning activities for individuals where the risks are managed
Reducing protection of people from risks that cause real harm and suffering.

Posted By Derek Oliver
Thanks for all the contributions (I'm the contributor formerly known as H&SEHO!) - I have to say that I am astounded by the diverse approach that many take to what was initially viewed upon (again by many) as an immaterial issue that's gone too far. It does show the importance that each case can possess when looked upon in depth and debated. Yes we have our opinions on where society is going but we also have a duty to ensure safety "so far as is reasonably practicable". Does the activities of clearing up grass cuttings on a pavement fall within this ambit? - we can have our views but only a court, in the end (as per Chiltern Railways), can decide. However, as safety professionals, we must ensure our profession is at the forefront of the decision making, otherwise it'll end up a civil lawyer-based technicality judgement that only further impacts on our already fragile, publically ill-conceived persona

Posted By Adam Worth
Sorry poor link -

I was refering to the STEP tool.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/sl...31/slidetype1_204391.htm

Posted By Peter F
Don't sue the LA sue the tractor driver under section 7, also whilst I am at it I am also going to sue because every time he cuts the grass my health is affected by hay fever. They should put signs up telling me there may be pollen in the area

Posted By Adam Worth
"I said, no worries take them off, but put them back on again when doing general tasks. No risk assessment - just some common sense"

But is this not a risk assessment? You just didn't write it down!

Posted By ScotsAM
Isn't the hazard the cut grass?

Elimination or hazard would surely be to not cut the grass?