Posted By Rod D Hi Guys What are your thoughts on Fire Extinguishers in the common parts of a building? i.e. reception areas protected fire routes/stairs etc. I am at present in consultation with a Fire Professional looking at a Strategy for the removal of extinguishers in the common parts. My rationale behind this is as follows. 1. If a person in a tenanted area tries to put out a small bin fire and their extinguisher in their demise fails to operate so they decide to evacuate however they see an extinguisher in the lift lobby say, they pick it up and go back to an area where there is a fire, putting themselves at serious risk. 2. The same instance however this member of staff has not been trained in how to operate an extinguisher and they use the Landlords Water Extinguisher on an electrical fire,does not bear thinking about. 3. Little Jenny the receptionist picks up a 9 litre extinguisher to put out a small bin fire and has an injury due to manual handling. 4. untrained persons using CO2 in a small confined space etc. All tenanted areas have fire extinguishers in their demise and the chances of a fire starting in a protected fire route or receptions are remote. Therfore I can see no reason why extinguishers are required in the common parts. Plant areas, lift motor rooms, electrical switch rooms etc will still be provided with extinguishers. I look forward to reading your comments Aye, Rod

Posted By Messy Shaw Call me cynical, but is this an exercise in truly reducing risk or simply reducing costs? To remove the extinguishers, you will need to justify why you have done so. A review of the FRA will most definitely be required. It is fair to say that a fire should not originate within a truly 'protected route' and that extinguishers are available within tenanted demises. That may be a sufficient reason to remove them. However it appears that this is a business multi occupancy (not residential) and I would suggest that you must consider the nature of each demise and risk and potential outcome of any fire within (such as possible speed of fire growth and fire loadings) To simply state you are anxious that somebody might be hurt using them is a thin excuse at best. If the tenanted areas are supplied with extinguishers, it will be possible to determine whether staff in those demises have been trained. In any case, if your emergency plan states the fire fighting equipment in the common parts is for use by trained staff or the fire service - then I suggest that would 'cover' you for any mishaps.

Posted By Rod D Messy (Cynical) This is being done in conjunction with our insurers and at no point did I say it was NOT a cost saving exercise. However I was looking through my portfolios fire records and no where could I find evidence that Fire Extinguisher from the common part (Or indeed the tenants demise) had been discharged to extinguish a fire. At an average cost of £4.00 per service of each extinguisher per annum and say 15 extinguishers (On average) per building times that by 70 properties equals approximately £4,200 per annum on servicing fire extinguishers or my company has splashed out £42,000 in the past ten years on fire extinguishers that have never been used operationally, that is a cost that I cannot justify. Along with the issues previously stated, there is my rationale, the Fire Consultant is and I am sure the insurers will be happy for me to remove these extinguishers from the common parts. Aye Rod

Posted By Crim Rod, Further - if you are unable to justify fire extinguishers I suggest you are in the wrong line of work!

Posted By D H Call in your local fire brigade and put your suggestions to them and follow their advice as I get the impression that you are unsure yourself. without seeing the site I could not advise therefore get the brigade or a consultant in. Cost of 42k over 10 years against the cost of a life and the risk of corporate manslaughter charge?? Your choice mate. Dave

Posted By Messy Shaw Rod: Do your buildings have fire alarms and emergency lighting? Have they been used in anger during the last 10 years? (as they too must have cost a fortune to install & service). The RR(FS)O2005 which requires a FRA to be undertaken, was meant to fine tune the fire safety control measures to the specific risks associated to a particular building and does away with outdated automatic prescriptive standards. If you are removing the extinguishers as part of an overall FS strategy which has been properly assessed & considered, then I see no problem. But the RR(FS)O was not meant to be used to allow responsible persons to cut costs using spurious reasons to justify their actions. Your original post gave your risk based justifications for removing extinguishers, but did not mention servicing costs which now appear to be the main driver in your reviewed approach. Each building's situation must be reviewed independently, as it is not as simple merely to use the calculation:- we've never used them. It costs us X and we have 10 buildings so we can save 10X if we remove them. As for the other poster who works in mental health. You must receive training if you are expected to use the extinguishers and in any case, if your are in the NHS, you should receive training annually. It is possible for extinguishers used in this environment to be stored in staff areas away from clients, thereby reducing the 'weapon' risk. Contact your boss & demand training

Posted By Rod D Dear all, First of all I would like to say thanks for all your comments; however I recall what a friend of mine (who no longer uses this site) said to me. “You get a lot of good advice but there are a minority that spoil the site by reading between the lines and verbally insulting and criticising people.” Crim, how can you possibly state that “if you are unable to justify fire extinguishers I suggest you are in the wrong line of work!” how can you make such a statement when you do not know what line of work I am in? You do not know where I work or what my job entails. Please also do not state that I am being complacent, I would like you to retract that statement, as this is something professionals should not be commenting on this forum. I remember one thread a few years ago and someone asked for advice and all they got some individual having a pop about the threads grammar, bloody ridiculous. Too many people on this site seem to hijack threads and have a pop at individuals; it must be great to be the font of all knowledge, which I am afraid to say I am not. It is just nice to be nice. I asked for comments which I thought would be constructive feedback, not to be told I am the complacent and in the wrong line of work. Hence like my friend I will not use this site anymore. Messy you are spot on the extinguishers are being removed as part of an overall Fire Strategy which is being properly assessed in consultation with a Fire Consultant, the local brigade and our insurers and I shall only be driven by their advice. Remember I am talking about removing the Fire Extinguishers from STERILE areas and PROTECTED routes there will still be Fire Extinguishers within the tenanted areas, plant rooms, lift motor rooms, electrical switch rooms etc (Read my first post and please do not cherry pick bits of the post) People make up their own little scenarios. All of our buildings have Automatic Fire Detection which is serviced regularly by a competent person in accordance with the provisions within BS 5839 :Part1 :2002 and all of our buildings have Emergency Lighting which again is being serviced regularly in accordance with the provisions of 'BS 5266'. All details are held in the Premises Fire Log Books. In addition, what I failed to mention in my first post was that 70% of our Buildings are manned by a Building Manager that undertake daily H&S and Fire Checks throughout their own building and these checks are also recorded as a part of our Due Diligence. Daily Checks include the checking of all Fire Routes to ensure they are clear at all times, all smoke detection is visually checked to ensure that no contractors have left dust covers on these heads and checking the fire alarm panel for any faults these are just three of numerous checks which are undertaken and recorded on a daily basis. I am a firm believer of Managing Risk and I shall be guided by my Fire Consultant, the Local Brigade and our Insurers. This is not something I have just decided on a whim to do I have thought long and hard about this, maybe I shall keep extinguishers in reception areas, however I believe firmly that that extinguishers in Protected Fire Routes should be removed as these areas are a places are deemed to be of “comparative safety”. Light the Blue Touch Paper and stand back!!!! Thanks to Eliza, Messy, Jervis and DH for your contributions. Aye, Rod D

Posted By Rod D Crim Fair enough, but you know what they say about opinions. Point taken about not enough info, however I did mention in was to be done in conjunction with a Fire Consultant and our insurers in my first post. Thanks for your input anyway. Aye, Rod D