Posted By John Allen We’ve all been taking this issue very seriously and personally and while I don’t take back anything I’ve said I sense there is potentially some common ground between the correspondents. So I’ll make just one further comment. The biggest change in health and safety in the last 20 years was the introduction of risk assessments. This took safety out of the hands of the pros and put it in the hands of those exposed to the risk (which after all was Robens intention). In the majority of cases this was fine but unfortunately most lay people do not understand the difference between consequence and probability (if they did they wouldn’t do the lottery). This meant in some cases that over the top decisions were made in situations where the consequences, while sometimes potentially severe, were of extremely low probability. However perhaps it shouldn’t surprise us that people are risk averse when it’s their own lives at stake. I sleep in my own bed at night, not 200 miles out in the North Sea with several hundred toms of high pressure flammable gas and liquid a few metres away from me. Why do we get so upset about the well publicised but minority of over reactions? Surely it’s a matter of education? As professionals we have to ensure that those carrying out the risk assessment appreciate the distinction between probability and consequence and are properly trained in applying the principles. That is part of our job. To give up because things have gone too far in one area is as defeatist as it is to give up because they haven’t gone nearly far enough in many others. It isn’t over-zealous risk assessments that kill people, usually its no risk assessment at all.

Posted By Haggis JM Claire, I'd love to see Mr Pratchett pen a book about H & S!!! If it did as much for this 'industry' as Making Money' did for the banking sector it would be worth it... :o) Now, is there too much, or not enough, 'Headology' in H & S?

Posted By Jim Tassell (2) Today I received an invitation to fill in a questionnaire about the 2010 IOSH conference (John Allen - it's at least in the right country at last!). I am profoundly struck by the concerns of respondents shown here. This issue is central to the development of our profession so needs to be a major agenda item in Glasgow. Let's try to understand who the real culprits are of muddled thinking that obscures rather than advances safety, that switches off the layman/small contractor/manager rather than engages them effectively. And for every real insurance person who goes over the score I bet there are ten "jobsworths" who will suck through their teeth, shake their heads and find a convenient bogeyman there.

Posted By domgoacher Interesting comments regarding the mountains of paperwork. In my time as an inspector, the reams of paperwork I encountered in both SMEs and large organisations were usually produced by consultants and full time H&S professionals. Shouldn't we be pointing the finger at ourselves? As a previous poster said "its down to interpretation" and dare I say it "justifying our employment"

Posted By Peter F Phil, obviously we work in totally different sectors. If you worked in the area I do you would quickly realise that people will try and claim for any injury, or is that coerced by solicitors. If solicitors who made the claims on clients behalves had to pay costs to the other side if the claim was dismissed then maybe the incident being claimed for would be looked at differently in the first place.

Posted By Sen Sar Just gossip "Take the NHS, we are telling nurses that as part of the job they must wash hands and feed the old" The scary part of that is that they need reminding! Basic stuff is being missed.

Posted By clairel Ron, not sure you read my posts accurately 1- I believe that CHAS and the other schemes are sound in principle but it is their application that has gone mad. A housebuilder and an alarm installer are being asked to provide the same level of competence / same certification etc. There has to be a grading of competence suitable to the job and that is just not happening as it depends on who's assessing - and there seems to be some idiots out there (though not all of them granted). 2- If a contractor only goes onto a site where a full survey has been carried out and all asbestos is identified in the plan then why does the contractor need asbestos awareness training? (and I do have clients that only go on sites where surveys have been carried out). Surely that's OTT. It's not just a bit of training to an SME that is trying to keep their head above water. My feeling towards H&S and the direction it is heading in is not a spur of the moment thing to be solved by taking a holiday (quite a patronising comment may I say) it has been building for the last few years but I now feel I have reached a point where I don't want to be a part of it anymore. On a weekly, sometimes daily, basis I am getting clients phoning me up becuase they can't get through a contractor questionnaire scheme that is asking for ludicrous levels of paperwork and competence. Or being informed about ridiculous civil claims being put in against them. Or being told ridiculous restrictions being put on them by insurers. I am at a loss in how to advise them. Then I come on this forum and read some of the posts and put my head in my hands and wonder why. Recently whilst riding horses (to chill out from this job)I have been told several times that I'm not allowed to do certain manoeuvres becuase they are not allowed to anymore becuase of health and safety. Now I know that H&S legisaltion and guidance places no such restrictions so I can only assume it is the insurers that have placed the restrictions. But I have kept quiet feeling more than a little embarrassed and come away thinking I just don't want to be associated with this anymore. The good feeling has gone. Despite the fundamental principle of H&S being a good one the reality is becoming something else. Personally I want to feel good about what I do, not ashamed. It is a decision that I have had to come to but it is one that has been along time in coming.

Posted By bereznikov Clairel Iv just spent the last 30 minutes of my life thoroughly reading this forum thread. 1.) I think it is a real shame that someone with such passion for occupational health and safety is about to leave it, and i think the field will be a poorer one with you leaving because i believe this occupation needs passion like yours. 2.) Taking a step backwards from of all of the differing opinions and beliefs posted so far on this thread, and looking at it holistically - I am really happy to see so many people here who with differing levels and types of qualifications, experience, knowledge and expertise, all clearly demonstrate a genuine interest and passion for the health and safety of people at work. I think if this thread proves anything, it is that the occupation has real moral substance. bereznikov

Posted By Ron Hunter I guess you and I will agree to disagree on the points I raised. Seems a bit touchy of you to suggest that 'taking a holiday' is a patronizing suggestion. I find a week or two away serves me very well in coming back to work with a fresh determination. I find even a weekend is often good enough to shrug off the kind of negative vibes you describe - and we all suffer those from time to time. Lighten up!

Posted By John Howells clairel, Im quite new to H+S and have worked for a few companies where H+S is a lip service to please insurance companies. Im lucky enough at the moment to be working for a company who believes that for all the hard work involved H+S is worth the effort. Beign part of a team where there are professionals passionate about there job has helped me stay focused on my job. Without the likes of yourself to guide 'newbies' the case is lost. Everyone on this forum knows and appreciates the value of H+S, its jut a few loose cannons who make our jobs difficult and unfortunantly, these people are going to be present regardless of where your employed. Hope I havent given a bad picture of myself in here as I dont usually write in here, knowing im in presence of greater knowledge! Keep your chin's up people! :)

Posted By Haggis JM ...even though it wasn't directed at myself, I must admit that I felt the 'take a holiday' comment to be highly patronising. 'lighten up' - maybe it is the industry which needs to step back a bit and lighten up, I can assure you that I do not hold the handrail every time I use stairs... IMHO overplaying the H & S card just turns people off and then they miss the important parts.

Posted By Kev Street clairel I agree with your original posting in that I too believe that the image, reputation and credibility of Health and Safety has been severely damaged by negative press, poor management or overzealous poorly trained practitioners and as a result is perceived as having gone too far. As a result of my frustration I moved away from mainstream safety some years ago and into an area of work that offered me an opportunity to practice the ethos of H&S but in a way that I feel I can make a difference. I now practice in risk and governance Maybe there something about changing a name, has the name 'Health and Safety' run its course, should we consider rebranding?

Posted By Raymond Rapp Pass the Prozac..

Posted By clairel I was mulling over people's comments then went to a client today, who informed me that although he is registered with Constructionline, CHAS and numerous others, one of his main clients has decided to introduce their own scheme, at a cost to each contractor of £1750 per year and if they don't go through the process they won't get future contracts. My client has also been told by another one of their clienta that they must buy a particular range of PPE or they won't be accepted on site. You see for all some poeple saying that I can choose to give sensible advice it is irrelevant when my clients are held to ransom - they won't get the contracts unless they go along with luidicrous requirements. madness, madness, madness......

Posted By Anthony Edwards Clairel, Have a look on the members site at the competent sub contractors thread and read John Murphy post regarding CHAS Schemes and SSIP. Then Grab yourself a glass of wine put your feet up and enjoy the weekend, wish I could its digging the garden for me! Regards Tony

Posted By Raymond Rapp I would also like to add that although I rarely work for SMEs (thank God) I have found their level of non-compliance with h&s law quite staggering. Even larger companies managing directors are quite apathetic when it comes to managing safely. Whilst I find this very frustrating and annoying, I think the level of safety management is beyond most SMEs and hence they are simply turned off. Of course this is not the only reasons for non-compliance. It is quite evident when checking authoritative documents and statistics that SMEs are a real problem. The regulators appear oblivious to this or unwilling to tackle the problem. Yet, when a inspector comes into our premises (railway industry) they are able to identify all sorts of petty issues - deck chairs on the Titanic spring to mind! Have a good weekend all and don't have nightmares.

Posted By Ron Hunter Claire, just ducking out from cover to respond to your post above regarding what look to be restrictive, anti-competitive and illegal practices. It's true that many employers have a skewed perception or lack of knowledge of H&S legislation. The same can be true of other areas of legislation! The link below may be of interest. http://www.berr.gov.uk/w...tion-act/what/index.html

Posted By clairel Ron, I dont think the companies that I am referring to are affected by laws preventing monopolies! Contractor questionnaires have become a money making exercise instead of what they were originally intended to be - a way of checking competence of contractors. I'm going to keep saying so that people like yo understand what I am saying: - I support the fundamental principle of H&S. Work should continue to prevent accidents and ill health where reasonably practicable. - I see a multitiude of clients every week and I don't care what is supposed to happen legally or otherwise, the reality is that many companies are being held to ransom over contractor questionnaires that are assessed by indivuduals that request a level of paperwork that is not necessary and is counter productive (and much of the time beyond what is reasonably practicable). - There needs to be tighter regulation of the civil claims industry to stop the unecessary financial burden on business. - Risk management not risk aversion is what I think we need to go back to.

Posted By Al.. This one of the best threads to run on here for a long time. Thanks for clairel for starting it. I for one feel that there is something rotten in the world of UK health and safety. We will get another drubbing this Monday evening on the telly. Many will be blaming the media for the way they portray us while, collectively, we should be asking what we do to give them the ammunition for their attacks. There is never smoke without fire. Pete Chidwick sums it up well (Friday 17th April at 1621). He finishes by saying "We can only hope that someday soon a high profile H&S ambassador who knows something about the issue and is prepared and able to stand up and say - from the perspective of wanting to help prevent serious injury and ill health - that enough is enough." Do IOSH recognise the problems which Pete identifies? Does the chair of the HSE?

Posted By alan biley Clairel, in what will you be re training?