Posted By jmc I thought the programme was interesting although not long enough. I would have liked to have seen interviews with British construction workers as well as the Belgian's to get an overall view from the people who are carrying out the tasks. No mention of CDM 2007 or the corporate manslaughter & 360,000 fine for the company's who were responsible for the death of a person whilst at work is absolutely ridiculous. More pressure should should be placed on to Directors, senior management, contract managers & health & safety consultants who in my view are all money driven. These people should be listening & giving more support to the H&S adviser's, supervisors & operatives of their organisation WHICH THEY DONT DO IN MOST ORGANISATIONS. I would have liked to have seen some input from organisation such as IOSH, Rospa, CITB, NFRC,IPAF, PASMA and other organisation that work within the construction industry every day

Posted By Jem ...also no mention of driving at work related fatalities, or the increasing asbestos related deaths and why we will eventually see a decline in this number.

Posted By Safe System HSE:- http://www.hse.gov.uk/news/2009/panorama.htm

Posted By clairel Not as bad as I feared but also could have been better - though I wouldn't expect it to have been better TBH. Very glad that the issues of civil claims was raised and a call for people to take repsonsibility for themselves as well. Well said! However, think that requires for a change in the legislation - which I am always banging on about - and unfortunately I don't think that will happen. Thought that it was disappointing that for the true and false 'facts' it was not made clear that just because something has happened (ie one school banned conkers) that does not mean that it is a 'true' requirement under sensible H&S management. WAH regs are badly written, ask any inspector. Would have been nice if the viewer had been told that it is not a requirement to have a certificate to use ladders - but what is Judith on about in her statement (elsewhere)that a 1 or 2 day training course for ladders would be appropriate?? Since when??? Bonkers! Personally I'm embarrassed by the whole Noise regs being applied to the music industry. I see it as a choice to play and listen to music and therefore should be exempted. Misleading to say how many HSE staff are warranted inspectors because many of them are sidelined into the various Sector roles and are not active inspectors anymore. So, anyway, better than could have been. So much more could have been said but half hour is not very long to be thorough. Not sure why I posted my thoughts on the programme. Who cares what I think anyway!!! ;-)

Posted By Sally I think the point Judith Hackett was making was that climbing a ladder may seem like common sense and it may seem reasonable to expect people to be able to do it without training but that 15 people a year are killed doing it therefore to prevent this a training course may be necessary. Or to we just say 'well it was their own fault' to these 15 families.

Posted By clairel No Sally this is what Judith said in her Times interview: “For people who are using them all day, every day,” shrugs Hackitt, “it’s probably not a bad thing. A one or two-day training course.” So think that is taking it too far. Awareness yes, a two day course no.

Posted By Sally So clairel, how would you propose stopping those 15 people falling off ladders if not by training?

Posted By Safe System **SS puts head above parapet ** biggest issue isn't people learning how to walk up and down a ladder (which the show seemed to insinuate).. again that is common sense.. personally i feel the issue is teaching people how to tie ladders carefully - and being a safety advisor for a construction company where i see it quite a lot - how to spot a damaged ladder! oh and as for complaining to the beeb... why waste your time... after all they do produce excellent educational shows like eastenders... **SS falls of ladder he was using to get above parapet**

Posted By Ben Keen All is not lost Merv. It is repeated on BBC News (sic) channel in the middle of the night later in the week. I recommend recording it and playing it back while you are out. In the words of Catherine Tate's grandmother; "What a load of ......."

Posted By Edward Shyer "Many a time I heard the top bods say something and thought 'what a load of rubbbish'!" Clairel fully agree with this statement even with 2Bs as a replacement.

Posted By Robert K Lewis I just want to know the name of the ladder training company - I can the n avoid using them. Any organisation training people to climb portable ladders set at the angles shown deserves to be named and shamed. Or was it all a poorly done set up for the show that concentrated on the nonsensicality of much of this training. I am also a person who hates misquoted legislation, including titles. The Health and Safety Act and the Noise at Work Act turned me off any idea that this programme would be totally honest and balanced. I for one am fully happy that IOSH was not seen as part of this debacle of a programme. I did do the double take though as I thought I was seeing Jaqui Smith - Judith Hackett again though!:-( :-) Poorly made programme allowing a nationally known person to bang his own self publicity drum is my personal view. Bob

Posted By ScotsAM I agree Kenneth, It did make Health and Safety into a bit of a 'fun' subject with their pop quizzes on hanging baskets and donkey rides. I understand that their aim was to seperate the bonkers conkers elf 'n' safety from the serious issue of preventing serious injury and death. I felt however that the programme didn't put enough emphasis on the good work and potential catastrophies that arise from poor safety management. Like I said before - It was ok, but could have been so much more. Robert - I thought I was seeing things when the presenter was shown at the top of a ladder at such an acute angle from the wall!

Posted By John Richards We could just get rid of people: People make accidents. The 15 killed falling from ladders makes headlines. The thousands injured doesn't, they should. Most ladder-use is common sense: Most users of ladders display none without training. We agree on the training, the disagreement is upon the amount. It would be fair to say that many in H&S consider that removing a persons right to take legal action would solve the problem/s ? Maybe it would solve problems if I pointed out that trade rules mean that the gov had to allow solicitors to advertise ? Not to worry, maybe the H&S industry could make another tv programme showing the true state of the country (before the recession).

Posted By John Allen "It would be fair to say that many in H&S consider that removing a persons right to take legal action would solve the problem/s ?" No John most of us don't. As long as there are accidents and people sustain injuries then there will be a requirement for compensation. A small number of vocal individuals complaining on this site about EL insurance does not invalidate the concept. Most injured people don't claim, those that do, are rarely fully compensated for their loss.

Posted By Arran Linton - Smith Steve, If you look at a copy of Hansard for the 2nd March 1970 Edward Heath did not take part in the second reading of the Employed Persons Health and Safety Bill!

Posted By Sheila EJ Keogh I thought the programme was pretty good - sat there expecting to wince with embarrassment at any moment, but it didn't really happen - well apart from ladder awareness.... However, as i was flicking through some of the responses above, about the programme still not being accurate/fair/not giving us a good name, I thought "why don't we, as safety practitioners, with IOSH sponsorship, put on our own programme and to give our professional point of view"? Any thoughts? IOSH Media - would you sponsor this? Interview the workers "at the coal face" so to speak? Let us put across our views and experiences (good & bad)? Any takers amongst the membership? Sheila

Posted By Peter F If health and safety was all common sense then why does it take years of training to be deemed competent. Not all people have common sense, they act the way they do because often that is how it is taught, short cuts become the normal practice, that's why at times the response is that's how it has always been done is used. If we got rid of the no win no fee situation you may end up with only genuine accidents being claimed for.

Posted By Ron Hunter Pete: By no means am I suggesting that there is widespread compliance with one-man window cleaners, I'm only saying there is a ready way they can achieve practicable compliance with WAHR. If you want a really contentious ladder-based activity, consider billposters! I would expect both these activities to be enforced by EHOs. It would be interesting to see what level of H&S intervention has taken place across the UK in those occupations.From a LA enforcement perspective, I would suggest they are relatively high risk? I am aware of some so-called "safety" campaigns involved with LA registration & licensing of window cleaners (in Scotland, via the Civic Government (Scotland) Act), however that "safety" context was more about encouraging the public to use only licensed cleaners who had undergone scrutiny to ensure they were free of relevant convictions etc. and not likely to rob the householder!

Posted By Dave Merchant Pete, Ron, etc. - window cleaners are advised whenever possible to use water-fed poles and long-reach tools instead of ladders, both by HSE and their own federation. See http://www.nfmwgc.com/health_safety.htm There are three guys who regularly do the streets around my place, and none of them carry a ladder of any form. Yes there will be buildings where ladders are required, but the vast majority of 2-floor domestic properties can be done with a pole.

Posted By Jack "read hansard? i have a life" "will you tell me section 9, subsection 2(b) paragraph 7 line 81 - - -" You're not convincing me!!